podcast transcript

Ep66 Ho'oponopono

Announcer 0:27

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:48

Hello, hello, hello, everyone,

I hope you're doing very well. And today I'm talking about something called Ho'oponopono. And if you haven't heard of this, it's become much more popular. It is a, it comes from an ancient Hawaiian practice, the form that most people know it in these days is not quite as old. It's from the 1980s. And I'm going to talk about it, it's, it's a simple practice, that can be incredibly effective. And the practice is so simple, that it's a little bit deceptive. And I'm going to, I'm going to teach you, I'm gonna teach you how to practice right here. Let me teach you how to practice how oponopono but I'm gonna give you some background information and give you a little bit of history. And we're going to talk about some of the metaphysics behind how it works. Why, why, if it just works, why? Well, I think we can actually get a deeper experience with it if we kind of understand what we're doing and who we're talking to, and that sort of thing. So I want to give you enough of a background that, you know, you could explore more information on your own. And if not, you can, you know, at least have have the knowledge when you're practicing where it comes from, who created it, what you're doing that sort of thing. So let's get into it, let's get into whole oponopono whole oponopono it's kind of a cool word. I love saying that whole pono pono is, again, it's an it comes from an ancient Hawaiian practice. And the word I don't speak Hawaiian, and I might mispronounce a lot of words here, and I apologize for that. But I'm not Hawaiian speaker. And, but I'm gonna do my best. So as far as I can tell the word itself, you know, it's like one of those things in English, it can have sort of multiple meanings, but it means to bring things into balance or to make right. And so as an ancient Hawaiian practice, not the version I'm going to teach you today, this would normally be done when two people are in conflict. Two or more, I guess, and then you would have somebody who would, who would be a mediator who would try to bring forgiveness and peace into the situation and make things right again, okay. And a lot of cultures harmony within a group. Setting a group that lives together or, you know, works together or whatever is incredibly important. It you know, it's important for survival to have that harmony. So, there are a lot of cultures where, you know, peacemakers might be shamans or some other role in this case, I believe that the the role is played by the Hawaiian version of a shaman now there's a Hawaiian word called Kahuna and that will that will come into play. And I believe that Kahuna means like keeper of the secret, but a Kahuna in Hawaiian. Generally they have specialties right so there are Kahunas who specialize in different types of healing. And there are Kahunas who might specialize in fishing or navigation by stars or you know that sort of thing. So, something to keep in mind as we get into this a little bit. So, hoh opponent has become whole oponopono has become very popular in the past, I don't know 10 or 20. The years or so, as a spiritual practice that has been opened to people outside of the Hawaiian culture. I don't want to confuse people by you know, thinking it's, you know, we're appropriating culture or something because we're not practicing the traditional method or teaching the traditional method. And, you know, traditional Native Hawaiian religion is still traditional Native Hawaiian religion. And that isn't what we're doing here. Right. But what we're doing is a practice and why why because it, the practice went from this, you know, method of bringing peace between people to bringing peace within somebody within individuals. And that happened, we know, around 1976, this conversion to this new style, this new type of hole opponent, opponent, we know who did this. Because she presented it in 1980, at a meeting of practitioners, and then had a student who went out and you know, she's got, she probably had many students, but one of them went out and taught this to the world. And I'll talk about him as well. So this begins with a woman named Morrnah Simeana. I think I'm pronouncing her name correctly. And my sincere apologies if I am not Simeon, or Siona. More now, she was a Kahuna, plant healer. So she specialized in plant healing, right using herbs for healing. Her mother was a Kahuna who specialized in healing with words, so using words to heal, and was a handmaiden to the last queen of Hawaii. So very important, obviously, very important role. A heritage of Kahuna is passed down through the family. And this woman developed it into, you know, camera and said, you know, what, if we used this process in a way, what if I modified this process so that people could use it to heal themselves from things like trauma and grief and to have more peace within themselves. And that's really what it's good at. Although it can be used for a wide variety of things that sort of like, if you know, EFT Emotional Freedom Technique where they tap on different meridians to do things, they bring up feelings about something and tap on it. It's a lot like that. It provides emotional freedom as one, you know, one of the things that it does, but it has a metaphysical effect as well, and I'm going to talk about that, so mourn as most famous students was a man and I might butcher his Hawaiian name again, I'm gonna stop apologizing for potentially butchering, butchering Hawaiian language. Just know that I apologize for anything I mispronounced was a man named or is a man he's he's still around, named Dr. Ihaleakala Hew, Len, and many people just know him as Dr. Len or Dr. Hew Len. He is a clinical psychologists. He works in the the ward for the criminally insane in the Hawaiian State Hospital, Wayne State Mental Hospital. And the story goes that when he got this job, he came in onto the ward and said, I'm not going to see any patients just bring the everybody's files. And he sat with everybody's files, everybody in the wards files and did ho'oponopono while he was reading their files over and over and over again. And the story is that people were healed and were released without, you know, they were doing whatever their therapy was during the day and stuff. But you know, this was kind of unheard of and how does this work? How does this work without even talking to these people or seeing them or whatever. And so I will go, I will go into that. So Dr. Len has become well known for this. There are books that he's co authored. He probably still teaches seminars and things out there. You can find videos of him talking about this It's widely available. If you're interested in ho'oponopono, definitely check out Dr. Len. And just, and just a fascinating story and a great guy to listen to. And just an amazing presence. I have not met him in person, but I have seen many, many videos with him. someday maybe I'll meet him in person. So great, right? I mean, sounds sounds amazing, we can heal people without even working with them in all, you know, stuff. And we can heal situations within ourselves, and we can heal our own emotions.

So how does it work? How do we do it? How do we do whole ho'oponopono. And if you've, if you have studied whole upon upon at all, for any length of time, you know, there are four phrases that you repeat, and you can repeat them out loud, you can repeat them silently to yourself, you can repeat them as part of a group, there are, there is a whole pono pono song, at least one maybe more than one out there, you can find on every streaming service out there, if you want to listen to it sung for phrases, very simple phrases. First phrases, I'm sorry. The next one is forgive me or please forgive me. The next one is thank you. And the last one is I love you. Now that's the traditional order. But you can change the order that you say these phrases in. And once your practice that ho'oponopono. Some people say you don't need all four phrases, you can just say thank you, I love you. And the other things are kind of, you know, the other phrases are assumed. But I when I do it, I say all four phrases, and I say them in whatever order I am struck by but the traditional way is to, you know you have a situation has come into your consciousness, right? Maybe you feel sad, maybe you feel scared, maybe you feel angry. And you say I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. All right, so what's going on? What What, what's happening here, talking about how ho'oponopono we say these four phrases? How do they work who they who we saying them to. And I think I think the idea of how they work, maybe not like knowing every detail of how they work right? On like, I turn on a light switch in my house and the light comes on. And I have a basic understanding of how electricity is generated and works. But you no need to know every detail of it for it to work. But having a little bit of a background knowing that, you know, electricity flows through wires and it's generated. And all of these things, you know, helps it when the power goes out, or, you know what whatever, you know, whatever happens. So let's talk a little bit about this. So I need to go into the a, I don't know if it's the only one but a model of the self, the multi part self or the multi part soul that comes from the Hawaiian spiritual tradition, known as Huna. And this is, you know, same root word as Kahuna. All right. And so let's talk about this multi part self. And there are many, many cultures with a multi part soul or a multi part self. One I'm particularly familiar with is the Norse version, the ancient Norse version, which, you know, considers the physical body part of the soul and the shadow and the there's a part of you that is responsible for luck. And then this, the part of you that is the life force that you have when you're alive and your mind and your memory that's one we also know that the ancient Egyptians had a multi part soul right, they had the con, the BA and all these different parts that separated when you died. And if you did good parts of them were reunited, and that's very complex. But in this this this multi part self is quite is is simpler than that, although it may you know, it may get more complex than this, but this is this is what I know of it. And again, it's not important to understand every aspect of this and some people who teach whole ho'oponopono are some books I've read and that sort of thing. Don't actually talk about this, but I think understanding it a little bit is helpful. So in this model of the self, there are three selves. So there is the Uhane, the Uhane is the middle self. This is our conscious mind. Right. So you, you probably, you know, you don't have to be a PhD in psychology to know that you have a conscious mind and you have an unconscious mind, you know that your memories are stored away. And they're not, you know, they can be brought to the conscious mind. But they're mostly unconscious most of the time. So for example, if I asked you what color your refrigerator is, or what color your mailbox is, you would probably remember that and bring that to your conscious mind right away. And, but that's stored away in the stored away in the unconscious, you weren't thinking about it until I asked about it. Just as you're probably not aware of your big toe, write the feeling in your big toe until I mentioned it unless it was sore or something. Okay. So the Uhane is the conscious mind, it's what we pay attention to think of the conscious mind a little bit like the captain of the ship, it sort of sets general direction, it holds what we are currently attending to. And the conscious mind because it's the part that we're conscious of, sometimes feels like it's all there is, but it's actually the smallest part of us, the conscious mind can only hold a very limited amount of information at any given time. Right? There's something like, through all of your nerve endings, and your sense organs, and all of these things, there's something like 11 bits of 11 million bits of information coming into your system at any given time. Now try to hold 100 items in your conscious mind at any given time. Not possible, right? That's why you know, the the the old study is seven plus or minus two digits or bits of information can you hold at one time? That's why phone numbers were seven digits or nine digits right? So you could you could remember them you could hold something and tell you that tell you a phone number and you could dial it in maybe you forgot it immediately. But you know, you could hold that in your in your conscious mind in your working memory and obviously these are you know, these are simplified structures of the mind and the consciousness so that's Uhane the conscious mind. So then you have an unconscious self This is known as the lower self. And this is in Hawaiian is that Uniihpili, I'm certainly may be pronouncing that wrong, I promise I will stop apologizing for pronouncing Hawaiian words wrong. This is your unconscious or subconscious mind. It is your stored away memories that you're not thinking about right at the moment. It's also the source of your emotions. Right our emotions arise from our unconscious mind. Frequently they catch us by surprise, right? Unless we're like, I'm gonna go watch a sad movie. So I know I will feel sad afterwards. Or I'm gonna go on a roller coaster and I might feel scared or exhilarated. Right our emotions are stored away there. Our intuitions come from there. Right so there's a lot of stuff that stored away in our unconscious mind. And then there is this concept of the higher self or the super conscious, this is the Aumakua. The Aumakua is considered the connection between us and the divine. In this in this particular system, can be thought of as the soul connecting to the spirit of the divine spirit. It's one way to think about it. And so when we are clearing which is what Dr. Len calls us cleaning or clearing, right we're clearing these whatever's coming up for us and I'll I'll talk about some of the ways to use this in more specific ways in a moment. But when when we are doing this when we are saying these phrases we are saying that our honey, our conscious mind is saying them to our outcome Akua who is cleaning out our, our lower consciousness, our lower self, our subconscious, with the help of divinity, right with the help of our divine connection that's worthy, I love you, you love me, forgive me, I forgive you.

That's who we're saying these things to, we're saying them to ourselves, but we understand you. And you don't even have to understand that there are different aspects of yourself, I think it makes it a little clearer, I think it makes it a little more powerful. If we're like, Okay, I'm intending this to go to my higher self to do this to help me do this work. So, I want to go back to Dr. Len using these to cure patients. And I'm going to, you know, I obviously am not going to use his words to describe how this happened, or the concept behind it. So I'll explain it from my perspective. So Dr. Lin opens up a file on a patient and it says this person has, you know, psychosis and whatever disorders, right, they've got. And this is coming into his experience, right. And there's the concept of radical responsibility here, meaning he is taking responsibility for whatever is coming into his consciousness. So the fact that this person exists and has these diagnoses, and whatever came into his consciousness, so there is something within him that is bringing these experiences to his consciousness, the idea is that we are creating our reality. We're creating this. And so he does his clearing. This can be challenging when looking at the actions of other people. So somebody does something that's hurtful to us or somebody does something that is horrible or hurtful or whatever, we are not taking responsibility for that other person's actions. So this is a clear and important distinction. We are taking responsibility for the part of us that experienced this, right? So somebody hurts me hurts my feelings, whatever. That experience happens in my consciousness, I say, oh, my gosh, I am sorry. I'm sorry, that whatever part of me, in whatever part of me this arose, I am responsible for my experience of this. It makes responsible for feeling the hurt and having the experience I didn't do it, and then do the thing that hurt me, but it arose in my consciousness. And that can be a little that was a little tricky for me in the beginning. So I understand if that is tricky for you. And if it's not tricky for you, fantastic. That's great. But that can still be a little tricky for me, right? I'll give you an example from my own life. So very recently, I had a long term relationship end, and it ended amicably. We are still friends, we are not living together anymore and not you know, in a, you know, committed relationship anymore, but we're still friends, but it was it still hurt. It hurt a lot. There's grief with the end of any, you know, there's a grief process with the end of any relationship and then with the grief process. There's anger, there's depression, there's hurt, right? There's denial, all of those things, all those things came up from watching them happen. Wow, I feel really angry. Feel really angry. I am not responsible for the decisions this person made. I'm certainly responsible for my part of the relationship or anything that I did that you know brought about the end of the relationship. Um, but I am responsible for my feelings. I'm responsible for the experiences that I'm having. Right? So very often, somebody does something and we have a reaction to it. And we blame that person for our reaction. How dare you make me angry? And the reality is that that person didn't make you angry, they did something, whether you agree with what they did or not, they did something. Your anger is your reaction to what they did. So I was feeling angry, I was feeling hurt, I didn't want to feel that way with this person, I want to remain amicable. But with the end of the relationship came grief. And also, you know, it stirred up some trauma that I have about abandonment, and that sort of thing, some stuff, deep stuff from childhood. That's my stuff. There's nothing to do with this other person, other than the end of the relationship triggered it. Right, that's my stuff, my reaction is my stuff. So I started doing whole pono pono, you know, the, you know, on a day where I was feeling significant amount of anger, and, you know, I didn't, I didn't lose my mind with anger, I didn't break things in my house, or, you know, what kicked my dog or anything like that, I wouldn't do anything like that. But I was feeling it, I was, I'm like, God, you know, I don't want to feel this way. And I don't want to feel this way towards this person. They did what they did. They said what they said, they you know, but they made, you know, they made whatever choices that were appropriate for their experience, their life experience, when they really want to do is I really want to forgive, I really want to let go of these hard feelings. You know, I don't carry that around, that just makes things worse. You know, it's not necessarily going to get the relationship back, but it is going to make me feel better. And so I started doing these clearing statements, and I'm intending them towards myself, and I, you know, really, really, almost right away, I started to feel much, much better. That's one example of using whole hooponopono for healing. If I had hung on to that anger, you know, I don't know, I don't know what it would have happened. But I would have been uncomfortable. It's not, it wasn't a pleasant feeling. You know, but also, it is a signal. That is a signal from my unconscious mind, Guney hippie Lee, that there is something going on that there's something wrong, there's something in me that is unhealed, there's some you know, there's there's some wound there from a long time ago. And so how ho'oponopono can help me not be as reactive to my triggers, meaning that you know, the wound is affecting the less and probably healing. You can do it with your wounding to no think about your wounding feel what you're feeling, do not repress your feelings. This is not about repression. This is about clearing and letting go. repression is worse than expression. Expression is worse than letting go. Right? Don't swallow your feelings, that really, really unhealthy for you. Don't push them down, feel them, name them, you know, do work to let them go. And this is one way to do it. Right? I'll never forget, there was a time where I was meeting with a friend of mine who is a shamanic, and other, you know, spiritual teacher as well. And one of her students, man named Kevin, and I don't remember his last name, and I probably wouldn't share it without his permission anyway, but we were talking about wounding, right, like psychological, spiritual wounding, stuff that happened that traumatized you that left you wounded. And I was talking about triggers things that happen, that touch on our wounds that are unexpected. So, you know, you've probably heard the expression getting triggered, it's become this again, this sort of pop notion of anybody who has an emotional reaction to something. But you know, being triggered by something is usually having a surprising and overwhelming emotional reaction to something that you're in. You don't necessarily know where that's coming from. Although you can you can you know, ventually figure out where that's coming from. Triggers are always pointers to a to a deeply held unhealed wound, a wound that we're carrying around. So you know, something happens, somebody says something to you, I'll give you an example from from my life maybe

years ago, there was a family member. She passed away recently, actually, a family member by marriage, who, I don't know why, but she, well, I know why, because of some wounding from her childhood, she always tried to start trouble with people in the family, so and the way she did that was she would look for buttons to push. Right, she would always have the most snide, the most rude the most just, you know, just one of these people that was always trying to make somebody angry. And then then when she did when she got a reaction, there would be this like, secret satisfaction of not so secret satisfaction with her, right, because of her wounding. That's, that's what she did. She had to get these reactions out of people that maybe weren't safe for her to feel she probably had this anger, and hurt and lack of self love from her childhood. And it was safer for her to see those expressed and others than to express them herself. Herself. ourselves. She definitely had multiple selves. And so she would just say these, like, biting off hand, like just, you know, one of the meanest, you know, I would describe her as a very mean person. And, um, you know, she said something to me one day, I had we had tried to plan a vacation with some family members. And it never worked out, you know, we were going to, you know, I forget, maybe go to New York or something. And I kept asking him, like, Oh, what about this weekend? No, no, we've got plans this weekend. And it just, it never worked out. I tried four or five times to get it together. And she was involved in and never, it never happened. And so I see her one day. And she comes like the first thing she says, she comes right up to my face, and says, You're not a man of your word. And instantly, I was triggered instantly. She had almost this sixth, sixth sense about what she could say to people to set them off. But I stopped myself. I knew that's what she was doing. I had this instant, like angry reaction. And then I breathed for a second. Drop that and said, What do you mean? And she said, You said we were gonna go on vacation together and you blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Look, you know, I'm sorry, you feel that way. I tried three or four times to schedule something. And it never worked out. But that doesn't mean I'm not a man of my word. And and she had nothing to say to that. And, you know, she would I was married at the time when we were hanging out, and my wife at the time every year for her birthday, and sometimes for Christmas or whatever she would, I would either I would buy her or she would buy herself a new purse. She really liked purses. Which is fine like a no judgment on my part. But that was her big Christmas gift. She wanted a purse from she liked coach or whatever. And that was her thing. She would have a new purse a couple times a year. And and she liked nice purses and nobody was going broke over them and she wasn't shopping every other day and it wasn't crazy or anything like that. And I just remember she would get really mad this person would get really nasty about you got another new purse must be nice. Must be nice to be you. It should be really nasty. And I remember going over there when one time and and my my ex wife had a new and it was one of those times where she had a new purse that this person hadn't seen another new purse. How many of those do you have like 50 I let you go? Oh no, she's got way more than that. She's got like 150 don't you don't you've got like 150 Isn't it cool? Is this purse? Awesome? Right? I had just taken what she said I knew there was gonna be this reaction. I took what she said. And I kind of did fused it, but this was this was this person she was trying, you know. And it was something that before the fork, she was around, my ex wife was not really self conscious about this stuff, but she wanted people to be self conscious. And she wanted people to be uncomfortable and she wanted to she wanted that. So she would touch these wounds and people, she would find them and touch them. Which is neat. Which is neat, because, um, you know, these triggers are pointers to something inside of us that is unhealed. So, back to my original story, I realized I've gone down a couple of rabbit holes. So I'm talking to my friend who's also a teacher and her student, Kevin. And I said, you know, somebody said, I was talking about how triggers were pointers to back to our wounds that needed to be healed. And my friend said, you know, what, if instead of wounds we call them teachers, because they're teaching us things about ourselves, I Oh, I like that. That's a nice reframe. And this guy, Kevin said. So triggers are like bread crumbs from the teacher. And I was like, whoo, I like that. That sounds amazing. I want to steal that. I said, I'm going to start using that phrase, I'm going to talk about you when I use it. And maybe someday I'll write a book called bread crumbs from the teacher talking about our wounding and talking about our triggers. But that's what it is. That's what's going on with our triggers. So when we're triggered, then, is a perfect opportunity. As I was, as I was feeling angered by this recent breakup, this is a great opportunity for me to do some cleaning. Why? Because I'm being given bread crumbs from a teacher a wound that I have a wound. Now I know, I'm pretty positive. Where this wound isn't mean, what it is, and in when that happened, and all of these things I have, I have wounds about being abandoned from childhood I've wounds about not being cared for I've wounds about being rejected. You know, that I work on that I have worked on, that I've, you know, worked on for a very long period of time, and probably will continue to work on for the rest of my life. But this is an opportunity for you to heal your wounds do not need to know where they came from. You do not need to remember your trauma to heal it. This is an important lesson that I learned in my own life. I thought, if I'm going to heal my trauma, I need to remember everything that ever happened to me that was traumatic in excruciating detail. And that was a road to hell, for me. That made things much worse for me. I mean, when I was going through, and to begin beginning of my trauma healing, stuff was coming up anyway, like flashbacks were happening and you know, nightmares and things were popping up that, that, that I was starting to remember. And I was like, I have to remember more, I have to remember more and really kind of forcing myself and I find actually, in my experience, it's not, it's not critical. It's not it's not critical to re traumatize yourself to heal from the trauma. Because we can, you know, even on just a brain level. We can create new neural pathways around those wounds, or through those wounds or past those wounds without invoking their memories. They can affect us less. And that to me is healing. You know, I still have you know, it's interesting. I was talking to somebody recently who was talking about talking about their anxiety, they're like, oh, you know, I feel bad. I have you know, I have anxiety I'm on anti anxiety meds I'm like, Yeah, you in 95% of the planet are on anti anxiety meds. In fact, I think I have to put my dog on anti anxiety meds You know, it's tough. Everybody has it, we live in a world that is not very, not very good when it comes to, or is very good at producing anxiety. But we live in a world where there is a tremendous amount of anxiety producing stimulus.

We have exposure to media, we have social media, talking about something that produces anxiety, you can go in there and see, you know, I talk about social media that it's people's highlight reels like people only put people either put stuff on there, that is like making themselves look really amazing. Right there, you know, oh, just got into a relationship just got married, just got a new house, right. That's their highlight reels. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, you know, people want to share the stuff they're proud of. And, honestly, I love to see that I love. You know, some people don't. But I love to see, I love to celebrate people, when they get new jobs when they get a new house, new relationship, whatever, when they're doing well, I love to see that. And then you get other people that is that our doom and gloom and anger all the time too. And both of those things can produce anxiety. I find, you know, it's either like, I'm Doom scrolling, I'm reading for horrible stuff, which is making me feel horrible. Or I'm seeing everybody, you know, living comparatively amazing lives. And why don't I have a beautiful house like that? And why don't I have a beautiful relationship like that? And why don't I have that fancy car? Why am I not eating? at that restaurant? I'll tell you what made me jealous. A friend of mine. A friend of mine is visiting New York right now. And she was posting pictures of the pizza. And that made me jealous. I want that pizza. It's making me hungry. It's making me hungry to look at that pizza, I want it. Right. So it's, you know, it's tough. It's tough. So these kinds of things, I think, produce a lot of anxiety in us. And not to mention the fact that, you know, some of us are just wired for that. And so anyway, this person was telling me, you know, I feel I take anxiety meds, and I feel bad. I don't know, she feels bad about it or not. But I'm like, you don't have to feel bad about that. I understand that. And I said, and I lived with symptoms of PTSD for decades. You know, when she said, Oh, I'm sorry, can you need to do want to tell me about it, I'm like, well, I'll give you an overview, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to trauma dump on you either. Because that can be you know, there's such a thing as secondhand trauma, where we pass our trauma on to other people. But when stuff comes up for me, now I have different I've more tools to deal with it. Those wounds are still there, but they just don't have as much of an effect. So let me give you a little bit of a metaphor for these psychological wounds. And, you know, speaking of these things as psychological wounds, is a metaphor. They're not like physical wounds, but so I was born with birth defects. And one of those birth defects required me to get my lower leg amputated when I was a toddler, basically 18 months old. And so, that amputation is unless you know, tech, you know, biomechanical technology leaps ahead in the next decade or so and is able to attach, you know, grow me a new leg or something. That wound will be with me for the rest of my life, that that missing part of my body will be with me for the rest of my life. Like the psychological wounds that I have from trauma, whatever, but that doesn't mean it has to affect me in extremely negative ways, right? So there are things that are a bit more challenging for me because of that, but I did you know, I wound up you know, as a kid, I wound up playing football and baseball I do a lot of sports. When I was a kid I played football, baseball, racquetball and tennis. I play basketball at home and some other sports and I would skate and play pickup hockey and stuff and some very active, very active. And most of the time, I don't even notice or think about it. So it's not like this thing is holding me back. The bank drawback these days is when I go through airport security. And because my leg has metal in it, and I go through the backscatter X ray I gotta get, it's a little better these days, normally, I just go through and they do a little swab to make sure there's nothing explosive or something in my prosthetic leg. But there were times where I had to, you know, receive what's called an enhanced pat down. very invasive. I was in the beginning of the TSA, like, some of the first times I flew, I was sent to a back room to have my leg x rayed, like x rayed not, you know, not going through a metal detector, not the backscatter X ray that you you know, go through that you put your hands up, and it looks for foreign objects on your body x rayed, like medical X ray. I've been through all of that, and that, you know, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this is tough, but, but I manage and they work within and I work around that. So it's the same thing, it doesn't affect me very much. And, you know, there are there are some things that I have to consider. But, but that is sort of like, the psychological wounds as well, the psycho spiritual wounds, there's stuff there. And then there are parts of it that give me certain abilities that I'm able to use to help other people, right. So I practice shamanism. And in shamanism and many shamanic cultures, one has to have gone through some trauma, or even been born with a birth defect, to become a shaman. Right, that's an important aspect to it. You have to be the wounded healer, you have to understand trauma, but it also changes you energetically. I am energetically different than most people from birth. Simply by virtue of having a different physical structure than most human beings. I have fewer bones in my body than most human beings. I remember, I would joke like this, this you know, having a prosthetic leg and all this stuff. Like, when you're a kid, you gotta have fun with it, you really do. So I remember being in class and like biology class, and high school or something, and they're like, oh, you know, there are 206 bones in the human body, and I'd raise my hand and they go, he has not me. You know, stuff like that. Um, you gotta have, you gotta have some fun with it. But that's the thing, it doesn't have a it doesn't have a strong negative effect on my life, nor do my psychological wounds anymore. From time to time, something comes up. From time to time, something comes up, like when I go through a breakup, and I feel devastated by it for some period of time. But now I have tools like her ho'oponopono, where I can work through the emotions, and I can handle things that can become less reactive. That's a big thing. Right? When we're reactive, we interact poorly, we make bad decisions, right? Because we're not in our right mind when we're triggered, and we're reactive. So I find that the more that I work with myself in triggered states through ho'oponopono and other practices, the less reactive I become. And the better choices I can make. Even though these emotions can still come up from time to time, emotions come up. It's not that they go away. It's that I feel them. They don't stick around as long and they don't lose my head. Right? So don't feel them as intensely. And I also learned to give myself grace. This is an important consideration as well. Right? Remember the four phrases of hope on opponent I'm sorry, I'm sorry that you're feeling this way. I'm sorry that you have this experience. I'm sorry that you know this, for whatever part I played in this experience. Forgive me, forgive me for one holding on to this, you know, mistake or forgive me for holding on to this rough feeling. Thank you, thank you for giving me the wherewithal to

take care of this. And I love you. This is important. Self love, give yourself grace, stop being so hard on yourself, you are a human being, we all fall down. We all get up. And again, this is, you know, this is part of the problem with social media. And you know, that sort of thing is that we see people's highlight reels, we think, oh my gosh, so and so just has a perfect life. Nothing ever goes wrong with this person. And that's just not true. And I don't care how amazing people are, how wonderful they are, how much how, how wonderful they seem. Everybody's got problems. Everybody has wounds, everybody has trauma. Everybody has stuff that happened in their background. Everybody has lost people. Everybody has been turned down for a job or a relationship. Everybody has had somebody say hurtful words to them. It's it, you know, it's happened. We've all got ups and downs. We're all living our own experiences. But, you know, this is universal. And that can make us think like, we're unique. We're alone in the world. We don't have you know, we're the only people with these problems. We're the only people with these experiences. It used to feel that way for me when I was first working through PTSD. When I first was diagnosed with PTSD, and I'm like, Well, I'm the only person who's feeling this No, no, that's an actual written symptom. It's part of the diagnosis. That means everybody has this. Everybody who has diagnosed with PTSD has the same symptoms that you do. You know, they're expressed in different ways. They have them to different degrees, but it's the same. That was eye opening. For me, I had no idea I thought it was, you know, thought I was completely alone, it can feel that way. So when it feels that way for you just know that you're not alone in the world. So with that I am going to wrap for the day, but I will, I'll give a couple of things. So as I record this, it is April 20. It's for 20 For you cannabis users. I do have something coming up at the end of this month, you can go to my website for more information. It's a 28 day course, called energy body alchemy. It is online, it's delivered through email and videos and a private Facebook group. And if I don't say so myself, it is absolutely amazing. It's an amazing course, I have given it once before this is the second time I'm delivering it. The feedback from the first cohort was amazing. People had great experiences, you will be surrounded by amazing spiritual seekers. And it'll be it's a completely transformative experience. And it is very reasonably priced. It's priced so that most people can't afford it. So you can go to my website main shaman.com about that. The other thing that has happened recently, that is pretty cool. Maybe I should lead with news, I don't know. The other thing that's happened for me recently that I'm very grateful for is I have been studying with the International metaphysical ministry I've been studying to become an ordained minister with them, I have just passed my exam I have, I have some things to do. Like I have to take some vows and sign some paperwork and you know, that sort of thing and send it in. But then I will be becoming an ordained metaphysical minister. And I am thinking about offering ministry. So there would probably be some sort of online forum. It'll be announced on my website as well and probably through through email. So if you go to my website and get on my email list, follow me on social media, whatever. You know, think about doing a regular ministry now this would not be a denominational ministry meaning you don't have to be Christian or anything to join in. It will include things like meditation, and you know, the whole idea of metaphysics is just to connect with Source consciousness which you might say, God or what have you, and that's fine. But this will be open to everyone and it will include practice in a group setting. So I will I'm still thinking about the format and delivery mechanism for that but that's coming up something I've been very interested in doing for a very long time so I'm excited to offer that. And I have also have two free classes coming up on learn on the Learn at Live platform. Those are on the calendar on my website, main shaman ma i n e sh a mn.com you can check that out. With that. I will leave you my friends. This has been an episode about Ho'oponopono we'll talk to you very soon.

Announcer 56:16

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to main sherman.com That's maimeshman.com

EP65 A Metaphysical View of Original Sin

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:48

Hello, hello, hello, everybody. It's good to be back. As I'm recording this, it is Easter morning. Not sure when you're listening to it, but I was inspired during a metaphysical meditation to speak about a particular topic. And talk about it in this podcast. And so following spirits is what I like to do. So I'm going to listen to spirit and speak about this subject. Today's subject is I'm going to take a metaphysical look at the concept of original sin. This is a concept that is very central to Christianity in particular. But I'm talking about sin in general and what it is and how that word has been sort of weaponized by the powers that be to keep people in line and that sort of thing. So welcome, welcome, everyone. And it is not my goal ever to poke holes in anybody's belief system, or you know, that sort of thing. So if your beliefs contradict mine, then that's fine. You and I can still be friends, I can still love you. Just as Jesus taught my friends, and if you think he didn't dwell in him, sorry. But that is a sin. When I get into what sin means we'll we'll talk about that specifically. And I'm not here to bash Christianity or bash on Christians or anything like that your beliefs are totally fine. But I am here to present a metaphysical perspective on sin, particularly original sin. One of the reasons for this is one of the reasons I want to talk about this, specifically, is that the the idea of original sin, as it's taught in most faiths these days, never sat well with me. I grew up in a household where my mother and my mother's family was very religious, my grandmother, who passed away at 106. Last year, was very much very religious, very into her church, as as my mom and I went to church as a kid, I went to Sunday school, and I went to church and all these things, and I enjoyed the stories, the Bible stories and all of that sort of thing. But when it came to the concept of original sin, this idea that you know, we are creations of God, but we are born into this world, already sinners. We are born imperfect and unable to experience the light of God and XYZ and that never even as a boy that never set quite well with me. And so, you know, I have meditated upon this. I have thought about this. I have had some what they call up G unproven personal Gnosis, Gnosis with a G, or get the word knowledge from I've had some things come through that I think are from spirit. But I will say that I don't know that any everybody, certainly not everybody, but I don't know that anybody else holds this viewpoint. So I'm, you know, presenting this as my view as one way to view this. And I am not fundamentalist or dogmatic or any of those things. And I don't particularly identify as Christian although I you know, I certainly have great deal of respect for Jesus and the teachings and a lot of the stories that come out of the Bible. And I think there's wisdom there. Well, let me start this way, though. I've talked about this before in other episodes, but there is a difference between the esoteric and the exoteric. And what what those words mean esoteric means, inner, inner secrets, the things that Jesus may have taught to His disciples, but wasn't preaching to the world. And you might think they're the same thing. But did you know some passages of the Bible could be taken differently. But in any religious system, or any spiritual system, there is usually an inner teaching, taught to initiates adepts. Apostles, whoever the inner circle, because, well, there's a reason for this, I'll talk about that in a minute. And then there is church, right, there's the thing that everybody goes to. And they're given a kind of a different set of surface level teachings. Part of the reason for that, there's a lot of reasons for that. But part of the reason for that is power to maintain power over the ultimate truth. certain religious institutions are very powerful. Part of it is ignorance. And part of it is there's a beginning I was listening to a talk by Dr. Paul Leon masters today, he he's passed away a number of years ago, but and he was talking about the inner and outer teachings of Jesus and how, in you know, there was a mystical aspect of that very few people approach. Most, the vast majority of people who are religious were religion, reading religious texts, do not dive deeply into meaning, even though we know that in particular, with with Jesus with Christ, the teachings were very much parables, most of the time meaning was teaching through these complex symbols. So Dr. Master said, you know, one of the reasons for this is that there are, you know, that are outward teachings of religion. Because most people born into this world are what we would call young souls right there, they haven't gone through many, many lifetimes, and gained, quite learned what they need to over the incarnations. And so, but there are religious teachings to help them to begin to form a relationship with God, and that over many lifetimes they could be potentially prepared for, you know, the inner teachings. That's one viewpoint, it's a viewpoint that I respect a lot. You know, and I'm not, I am not here to claim I know the truth with a capital T. Right, I don't, I am an individualized human being. But I have had mystical experiences, and I can share them with you, and you can decide whether they work for you or not. Okay? So we have these young souls, the majority of people that come into this world, they are not prepared for reality, the universal reality reality as it is in under a spiritual underpinning to all of there is now I think the world is going through a shift where more and more people are becoming ready for that. And that's how it's supposed to be. Um, but that's, you know, it's fine. And it's forgivable, you know, if we take a, I'm better than you because I know the truth and you don't attitude, that's problematic. And that's why we say, Look, this is my viewpoint. This is my perspective, you may have a very different one. And that's okay. You have a perspective that is appropriate for your, you know, the lifetime that you're in, for the education you've been given. For the culture that you live in, for the family you grew up in. I'm not going to hold it against you. But I'm going to, you know, I'm going to share my perspective. And if that is helpful to anyone to think about things in a different way. That's great. If not, that's okay too. So we have inner and outer teachings inner esoteric outer exoteric. The vast majority of spirituality in this world is exoteric e x O T E R I C. Those are Greek words, inner and outer. Circles basically, are in the inner circle or in the outer circle. And in the Greek mysteries, right, the Greek Mystery Schools, you would have to go through an initiation process. And that might be true. You know, in your church, or you know your religion, whatever your religion is, you might go through a process for becoming a full member of a church or religious body, right? If you're I don't know all of the ceremonies. But if you're Jewish, for example, you would have gone through, you know, in your mail, you would have gone through a bris. And, you know, whatever. I think it's a mikvah, the ritual bath and been going through a Bar Mitzvah. And so there's a bunch of stuff that you would have gone through to become a full fledged member of that

religion. But then there are inner orders, there are mystical teachings in, you know, core teachings. So in in Judaism, for example, there's Kabbalah, there's, you know, in an over the centuries, there became Christian Kala and hermetic Kabbalah, which are very, very similar. But there's Jewish mysticism, and there's Muslim mysticism, and Buddhist mysticism and Christian mysticism, we just don't know, you know, if you're in the exoteric part of a religion, you don't know a whole lot about it. And this isn't to say that every faith every denomination has an inner order, because that's not true that that that doesn't happen are a lot of churches that are completely 100% exoteric. In fact, most of them don't have inner teachings. So what do we think about sin? What do we think, you know, when we're taught about sin, um, you know, from a, you know, from particularly, I'm taking a Christian perspective, because it's the one I, you know, grew up in, and probably know the most about, not probably the one I know the most about, and, you know, the one that's predominant in the culture that I live in the Christian idea of sin. So, sin when, you know, what do you think of when I think think of sin, you might think of, Oh, you did something bad, or you transgressed against God, you offended God, you did something that is considered an abomination to God, right? That that's a word that sometimes use particularly the Old Testament. Right? So you've done something and the wages of sin are death. And you if you die with enough sin, you're gonna burn in hell for all eternity. Wow. That doesn't sound like a very loving religion to me. Oh, but there's a way to get forgiven. So let's talk about the word sin. In the Bible, there are, you know, the Christian Bible, the word sin comes, is a English translation of either either a Hebrew or a Greek word, depending on what part of the Bible you're reading. The word in Hebrew is Hatha, I may be not pronouncing that correctly. And the word in Greek is Hallmark harm. It's either her Matea or Hama, Tia, probably hamartia. Those are the words that when you read the word sin, in, in an English language Bible, that those are the words that they come from. And they, they kind of mean, they, you know, in their respective languages, they kind of mean the same thing. And the, the original connotation of those words isn't even religious. As you know, it has nothing to do with offending God or, you know, earning your way to burning an eternal hellfire or whatever. Those words mean, making a mistake means falling down, literally missing the mark. As in, you know, the Greek version is used when an Archer was firing at a target and missed. You missed the mark, you made a mistake, you fell down. That's what it means. Now, over the years, as you know, again, one of my one of the things that has kept me away from sort of traditional Christianity has been the, the, its origin with, you know, military control structures, particularly, you know, the church of Rome, using Christianity to control the masses, saying, Oh, look, you know, we No, we can't sort of police what you do. We can't police what you believe, and we can't police, you know, blasphemy, that sort of thing. If we catch you, we're going to put you to death. Because that's, that's what we have to do to stay good. But doesn't matter if we don't catch you, you're gonna burn in hell if you do any of this stuff. So it was, you know, the carrot or the stick. If you did, did all the right things and went to the right building and said the right words. You were rewarded when you die. Not now. Not in this lifetime, your life now is gonna be hard. And of course, for you know, the vast majority of human existence, life has been pretty darn hard. You know, I think of where my grandmother grew up in 19. You know, she was born in 1916 in rural Maine, and they didn't you know, they weren't a wealthy family didn't own a horse. They walked everywhere, they had to go school church. You know, they didn't have electricity, running water, indoor plumbing. You know, the heated their bath water on a stove, took a bath once a week. He did one tub of water, and the oldest one got in first. And then when that oldest one was done washing up, the next oldest one got in. And if you were the fifth kid in that family, you get the dirtiest bathwater there was. And that's a relatively modern, modern times. Things were hard people didn't live a long time, you know. So life is pretty hard. And so you know, we're like, there's a loving God, why do we gotta go through it? Oh, don't worry about it. Just do what you're supposed to do your rewards coming, it's coming. Payday is happening when you die when you die. But if you read a little more into some of the teachings of Christ, and particularly from a reading it from a mystical perspective, and you know some of some of the other teachings of the Bible, they will say things like the kingdom of heaven is within. What does that mean? It means that the kingdom of heaven is already within you. So from a mystical perspective, you are because you exist in this world as an individualized emanation of God, you have God within about you, if God is, um, this is when I was a kid, you know, this when I was a kid, and I was going to Sunday school and they were like, God is everywhere. And God is, you know, and I'm like, Okay, well, that must mean that God is inside of me if God is literally everywhere. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's that's not what we meant. Well, how can God be everywhere? If God's not also inside of me? Isn't God like, you know, the underlying substance of the night? Sure. I didn't use those words when I was a little kid. But I found that confusing. God if God if our conception of data if you don't like the word God, you can use source or universe or whatever, you if God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. That means there is nothing that does not have the substance of God within it within the universal mind. So let me give you this model. And then I'm going to start talking about original sin a little bit. So this this comes from mysticism in general, but you know, you know this is this is something that you can learn from Kabbalah you can learn from other mystical belief systems and practices, but before anything existed, there was you know, the in in Kabbalah, they say, the iron software, the iron soft, or that limitless light of field of limitless light, just liked that was it. Limitless was infinite was outside of time, you know, this is prior to the Big Bang. I mean, it still exists, but, you know, this existed before all else. And so, let's, you know, let's make some assumptions that the, you know, the following statements are more or less true, just because I'm gonna, I'm gonna paint a picture for you. And if you can hold on to these thoughts for a moment, even if you later you know, if later they don't, you know, make a lot of sense to you. That's totally fine. But let's, let's go with this for now. So we have this field of limitless light, that field of limitless light is conscious that's what we call God or the universe or source or whatever it is without form or two. gender or anything. There's no mass, there's no matter there's no time. There's no space. It's just hard to imagine. But you know, it's beyond sort of human comprehension. And then, you know, this limitless light this universe like I, I really I want to understand myself better. What how would you understand yourself better, you would have to create some artificial differentiation because you're all that it you're all there is. And again, there's no individuals at this point in time. There's no There's no maths or matter, people, aliens, cats,

bats, mice, there's no you know, none of that exists yet. So you say, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to split things off. And so Qabalah talks about this and Taoism talks about this, and there are other forms of mysticism that talks about this. The one thing in Taoism, they say that, you know, first there is the nothing than the know thing. And that gives birth to the one thing and we might call that like the impulse, the impulse to, you know, the, the, the impulse to understand itself that nothing, no thing in you know, understand yourself, so becomes the one thing. The one thing splits into two, in Taoism, this is yin and yang, masculine and feminine principles, spiritual principles, this has nothing to do with gender identity, or biological sex or anything like that just principles that ancients labeled masculine and feminine. in Kabbalah, this is the spheres of Binna and hochma. You know, being the feminine and hochma, being the masculine. And then from there, goes through, you know, levels, successive levels of emanation until the physical universe is created. But everything and so again, this is borne out in mysticism, and borne out in science if you believe the Big Bang Theory, everything has a single source. Everything including you and me, and the rocks and the trees, and the space aliens and the cats and dogs and mice and bats. As my cat comes over to say hello, at this moment, hello Phoebe everything as a single source, everything emanates from the single source, but because the single source wants to explore and to have experiences, what it needs to do is to create individuals individual it needs to individualize into different consciousnesses. So we have you and I have individual consciousness, but we are also emanated from source from God, if you want to call it whatever so there is nothing in this nothing that exists. Not a thought, not a physical thing, not a consciousness that did not emanate from the one thing. Okay, so this is there's overlap between the science of the Big Bang Theory between Kabbalah and, you know, Greek mysticism and Taoism, and so it seems that wise people all kind of come to very similar conclusions, then we'll use different language to talk about it. Because the concepts I'm simplifying here, significantly simplifying, but they're kind of large for individualized human minds to comprehend. You can experience this truth during mystical states of consciousness. Right, you can you can have these experiences have a you know, a, an experience of being absorbed into Universal Mind, the god mind the the, the oversoul, the universal. So, again, you know, Brahman in the Vedic Science, right, so, all of these different spiritual systems and even you know, we could overlay the this similar meaning with scientific theories of cosmology how the universe was created. So we are, most of us, I would say, including myself, perceive ourselves as individual beings. We have ego ego is this idea of who we are we tell ourselves, it is the beliefs and the stories that we have about who we are. Right? I have an ego. I say, I am John Moore, I am a spiritual teacher. I am a shamanic healer, I am a dad I am. So these are labels. But they don't point to the essence of who I am. But I have this individualized consciousness has all of these ideas about what is true about me. I have a an egoic self concept. Until I you know, meditator enter into a mystical state of consciousness and the ego falls away. And you experience what some people call ego death. I don't love that term. I'm still using my ego, I don't want it to die at this point. But you, you experiencing a lessening of attachment to your individualized conscious consciousness becomes less clung less tied to who you experience yourself as, and you experience yourself as universal consciousness more and more and more, the more you practice. You know, if you're ready for it, if you're not ready for it, that's okay. It's fine. There's no, there's no judgment here. Right. And so because there were a lot of young souls and people who are power, hungry, and patriarchy, and militaries and governments put in place over our religious systems, they became systems of judgment, right? We put people to death for witchcraft, we put people to death for being Jewish and not converting. We have ongoing religious wars in this world. Right? Oh, you read a different book than I do. I need to take all your land and kill your family. That's, that's what happens. In this world, it's ridiculous. That is sin. All right. So let's, let's get into Original Sin a little bit. Okay. So hold this idea for a moment, the idea of sin being missing the mark having mistaken ideas having mistaken behavior, right, and the number of ways that sins are outlined in the religious texts, right. Some of them are things like you know, don't eat shellfish. You know, in the Old Testament, don't eat shellfish, don't eat, you know, don't mix milk and meat and don't eat, you know, pork, whatever. Some of those rattling wheels are the 10 commandments, Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, Thou shall not covet thy neighbor. Like coveting is a mistake of, you know, oh my gosh, I'm gonna feel so I feel so attracted to my neighbor's wife or my neighbors, donkey are my neighbors, whatever. Right? Coveting keeps me in this. You know, these are kind of just Rules for Living and being loving to one another. And there are rules about God in there to thou shalt have no other gods before me. It doesn't say that other gods don't exist. It just says, don't have one before me. I'm your number one. YAHWAH which is, you know, I believe was a Hebrew storm god, that for some reason became the chief of monotheistic religion for the Israelites and later the leader, Christians and also and then after that, Islam, right. You might say, well, Islam worships Allah. Allah is just the word for God. Just like God is the word for God in English. There are different words in different languages. The Arabic word for God is Allah. People who speak Arabic and who are Christian, worship Allah. So there's a lot of misunder standing out there amongst the ignorance. Not you know, I'm not labeling people as ignorance to, to just seeing amongst the ignorant beliefs, that it's a different Different being so

so anyway, let's, let's get to it. So, the whole universe has emanated from a single source that includes you and I, that means we are a part of divinity, we are a part of God, we are emanations of God source, the universe, what have you. So hold that for a moment, hold the definition of sin, just as missing the mark for a moment, having mistaken beliefs or behaviors or whatever for a moment. Let's talk about original sin. So original sin, the idea of original sin, if you don't know, it comes from the story of Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve are tricked by the serpent. And again, this depends on your belief system, because there are Gnostic sects that believed that the serpent was actually trying to awaken Adam and Eve. And I, you know, there's something to that. But let's hold for a moment that that story is not literal truth, that that story is allegory and it's meant to teach a mystical lesson in an esoteric way, it teaches certain lessons to people on the exoteric side, you know, and people who take things literally, like this is literal history that I'm reading in the Bible. That is a very new way of reading the Bible and also considered amongst you know, many biblical scholars from going way back, that biblical literalism is like the weakest way to read Bible stories, right reading the Bible as historic events. First of all, not really that important, right? If you're trying to learn how to live your life, who cares if Noah's Ark was really, you know, the way that it's described in the Bible was, it was actually what happened. Or if Adam and Eve were actually the first to humans and II was made out of Adam's rib, which we, you know, we know, we know if you're, if you have any scientific mind, at all, you know, is not, not true. In fact, that's not even the original Adam and Eve story. The original story, I believe, comes from Mesopotamia and Adama means wet clay. And Adam was made by Eve out of clay mixed with her menstrual blood. There's not even the original story, right. But in the patriarchal system that came out of the Judeo Christian belief system, in which women were the source of evil. Another reason why people are running away from many religions. You know, you couldn't have Eve creating Adam, you couldn't have the snake, being the hero of the story, or, you know, whatever. So anyway, and the original, the story that most people know from the Bible, Adam and Eve, living in the Garden of Eden, they know God, they're close to God, they are living in an original on sinful state, meaning, the mystical meaning of that this is part of the Revelation there, or the Gnosis that I got was that, you know, these are beings who have not mistaken, who don't have the ego, you know, the, the, they don't identify with ego, they live close, they live in the presence of God, meaning they are identified fully with God, then they eat from the tree of life, or the Tree of Knowledge, whichever you whatever label you want to put on that. And that's the only thing that God tells them not to touch. And because of that, they get thrown out. And, you know, they know death, they know life, life is hard, all of a sudden, for them, they don't have all their food just provided for them. And then they have some kids and their kids, one of their kids kills the other kid and a bunch of bad stuff happens, right? So here's my interpretation from the metaphysical perspective, which is, you know, reading in taking an esoteric reading, and, and again, this is one viewpoint, I believe, came from spirit for me to help to help me understand this. Because I didn't like the teaching, and it didn't make sense to me before. Right? And many, and I was always a kid who questioned everything I know, like made teachers and parents and everybody mad. When I did, and, you know, certain religions like don't ever question this belief kid. But so Adam and Eve were living in an egoless state. And I believe that these are the original, what we call the divine masculine the Divine Feminine emanations from got corrected. You know, the this is when God first differentiates. And I'm not talking about physical human beings at this point talking about spiritual human beings. And these beings, then, you know they are living in they know that they are God, they know that they're aspects of God, they are constantly experiencing the presence of God, which by the way you can experience to their constantly experience living in the presence of God, there's no because they haven't differentiated into ego forms. And the fall, the biblical fall, the fall from grace, is when human beings move out of living in, in grace, which is our which, by the way is our natural state, when you are born, you are undifferentiated, there is no difference between the outer world and you at that point, it's a very non dual state. So there's differentiation into egos. And the beings, human beings, whatever, start to feel, they identify with these egos with these limited mind, body egos. And they are no longer feeling like experiencing, living in a constant living in the constant presence of God, or source, or the universe, or Brahman, or what ever word you want to use. Labels are limits, but they're all we have sometimes. So the sin the sin of original sin, to me, from a metaphysical perspective, that I that I learned about during and you know, personal Gnosis. So, again, one person's viewpoint, take it for whatever it's worth to you is that sin of believing we are not divine beings, that is missing the mark. Somewhere along the line, we said, you know, depending on your again, depending on your religion, you need to have that Mark washed away. And that's what baptism is for in many in many faiths. Right, without that, you cannot receive the light of God. You know, we believe many people believe anyway, not me, but many people believe that perfectly innocent babies are born with horrific sin. Because 1000s and 1000s of years ago, a couple people in a garden, eat some fruit and defied God. And that Mark is an every single human being that is ever born and ever will be born.

It paints a very punishment oriented patriarchal picture of what's supposed to be a loving God isn't it and I fully believe that, that God or source is loving is love, in fact, is the force of love. So the belief that God is punishing or vengeful or horrible or fear some or any of those things, I believe that that is a mistake, that that is sin. And that is part of that original sin and wiping away Original Sin. You know, again, it's not about reaching heaven when you die. It's not about your reward coming with death. It, it can happen in your lifetime. When you do the work. And you begin to more and more merge your consciousness with a universal consciousness. You begin to wipe away your sin by lessening your attachment to ego, not your sin, as in you have offended your existence offends God. Your sin, as in you're mistaken, but useful for a period of time viewpoint that you are not a divine being that you are not part of the oneness of all There is that somehow you can live away apart from God and I know like all there there will be a lot of people whose theology directly contradicts what I just said that's fine it's totally fine I'm again I'm presenting my viewpoints and you can take it for whatever it's worth but when I when I get information like this when I get aha moments during meditation or ritual I often feel like it's a good idea to share them because as the Bible said, those with ears to hear shall hear. Right. Those who are ready and are open to the message will hear it and those who are not won't and that's totally fine too. And if you disagree with me, that's totally fine. You know, nobody's getting burned at the stake here. Not in my house. It's too messy. Normally only that I love I just want to love everybody. You know, I do my best I do my best to love everybody. We can disagree and I can still love you I can still have loving feelings and and love you. With that I'm going to leave you for today if you are listening on Easter as a as I'm recording this and we'll release this on Easter, happy Easter if not happy whatever day it is for you as you're listening to this, my love to you and I will talk to you again very very soon.

Announcer 42:15

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshamon.com That's maineshaman.com

Ep64 Spiritual Self-Defense and Protection

Announcer 00:27

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John

John Moore 00:47

Hello, hello, hello. Hello, my friends, I'm back. And I'll say that I am recording this at an unusual time for me. I'm usually a morning person. And I usually do these things first thing in the morning. But I wanted to get one out and you know, it's it's almost seven o'clock at night where I am. past my bedtime. Just kidding. I'm not that much of an early bird. But today I'm going to talk to you about spiritual self defense and protection. What does that mean? Why do we care? Why should we be interested? What are some methods of protecting oneself spiritually? Excuse me? And what on earth or not on Earth? Do you want to protect yourself from I have, I'll say this. My background is my backgrounds a little strange. So I have a background as a shamanic healer and teacher to teach shamanism quite a bit teach other spiritual topics. And this is I taught a course in shamanic self defense, it went over really well was very popular with people, and they get a heck of a lot of people who contact me and go, How do I get rid of these entities that are attacking me or I'm under a curse or what have you. So we're going to talk a little bit about that today. And so my background not only as a shamanic healer, but I also taught martial arts for a couple of decades, including teaching self defense classes at places like Harvard Medical School, and a research a Primate Research Laboratory interesting place, and a, you know, Law Firm and I would do these private self defense classes and a shelter for pregnant teens. So all kinds of places I taught self defense, and then I went in and got a master's degree in information security and assurance. And so I learned a lot about things like hacking and protecting boundaries. And so combining my physical self defense, my technical self, defense or company defense, knowledge with my spiritual knowledge sort of puts me in a unique spot. And so I have a ton of books about a shelf of books basically on spiritual self defense. There's a lot of stuff that comes from witches wit or witchcraft or Wicca or you know, whatever. There's a ton of stuff that comes from there. Right I have a book called The witches shield by Christopher pen Zack and author I really like who is a witch and I have a book in front of me as we speak called hex twisting, counter magic spells. For the uninitiated, which I have not read that but or, you know, I've read parts of it. Interesting stuff, and I always like doing research and getting new techniques. So let's talk a little bit about what I mean by spiritual self defense and protection or spiritual hygiene is another term I like to use for this. And to get into this I want to talk a little bit about the Emerald Tablet, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus. Thrice great Hermes, the Atlantean 12,000, supposedly 12,000 years ago, this guy carved out seven seven rubrics. So little paragraphs into a green stone and hid it away in Egypt. And the story was that it was discovered, eventually discovered by Alexander the Great who built a, basically a temple around it or a library around it and has been lost since then. But there are copies of this, we have copies of it in Arabic in Latin. And now of course, an English has been translated many times over. And it lays out the, in very succinct terms, some of the secrets of the universe secrets of reality, right, if you know how to read it, if you know, you understand the laws if you dive into them. But the first one, the first law, or kind of, I guess, it's maybe the second rubric, the first rubric just says, Hey, this is all true, I swear. But anyway, that the famous line and you might have heard this before, has sometimes been translated as, as above. So below, we're also translated as that which is above is like that, which is below. And what this can be taken to mean is that the physical world is a reflection of the spiritual world, and that the spiritual world is acts as a template for the physical world. And physical manifestation is a process of the Divinity, the one mind, the one thing coming down through all of these layers of creation, and finally winding up in physical reality. And so we can be assured that things that exist in the physical world also have a spiritual counterpart. And that includes things like threats, things like bad guys who want to do harm to us things like you know, disease, there's a spiritual component to disease, things like that, right? And so we want to be protected from those things. Now, I will say this, when somebody contacts me, regarding I've been cursed, or I have entities after me, or, or what have you. I don't just take them on face value. And it's not to disbelieve what they're experiencing, I believe that people who contact me are having real experiences. But very frequently, they are misinterpreting what happens and I will get into that a little bit. Most people these days are not under curses. Most people don't have possessing beings, but it can happen. And there are other things that can happen, that are problematic spiritually, that can affect us on the physical plane. runs of bad luck can often be attributed to spiritual causes. So what I want to do is outline a little bit of the way that I look at spiritual threats. What's a threat? What's a vulnerability, this comes from my background in risk analysis. A threat is something that can cause harm, can cause some conceivable harm, right. So if you're an insurance company, and somebody builds their house in a flood zone, they would have to take out maybe a separate flood policy. Because a flood is a type of threat to the structure, right? As a human being, there are all kinds of threats to your life. There are diseases, there are accidents, there's old age, there's, you know, that sort of thing. So these are things that can cause physical harm to you. Crime, traffic accidents, falling down in the shower accidents in the kitchen. These are things that can cause physical harm. And so spiritual threats include things like curses, painful magic, energy attacks, just picking up bad energy from the area, you're in crossing nature spirits doing something that you shouldn't do, violating the sanctity of a temple or space, all kinds of things, breaking oaths. There's a big one don't make odes to spirits that you don't fully 100% intend to keep. So excuse me. So that's what a threat is. So a vulnerability means an exposure to a threat. So, if I don't ever fly, I will probably not die in a plane crash. That being said, planes are safer than cars safer than bikes, accident wise fatality wise. So that's when we get into risk. Looking at risk, right? So we have threats, we have vulnerability, vulnerability are, you know, weaknesses? Or is one way to look at it, or exposure, exposure to threats? All right, if I am where I live in the state of Maine in the US, I am highly unlikely I am highly unlikely to be bitten by a poisonous snake because there aren't any that live here. It isn't to say somebody might not have a pet Cobra in their house that they shouldn't have. But, um, you know, there's very little vulnerability to that. If so, vulnerability can be contextual, as well. So let's talk about risk. Risk is a combination of the chances of an a, you know, something that is a threat, the chances of that occurring, and the amount of damage that it can cause. So sort of a multiplication, and there are, you know, there are risk tables that insurance companies use and risk analysis and that sort of thing, right. So, for example, getting bitten by a poisonous snake would cause a significant amount of damage, or could cause a significant amount of damage to me, including fatality. However, the chances of that happening where I live, are very, very close to zero. The chance of the chance of dying in a car accident, anywhere in the United States are fairly high. Okay, so that fatality could be considered like 100% loss, and the chances are pretty high. So should I be more scared of poisonous snakes? Not scared, but you know, not unintelligently fearful, but should I be more cautious of poisonous snakes or driving in my car? And the logical answer to that is driving in my car, right? So people think that, you know, spiritually, we can do a little bit of risk analysis in this can be hard, because if you're not some kind of practitioner, you don't know a lot of people in esoteric circles, that sort of thing. You might not know how common things are, right? So very powerful curses that can cause huge amounts of damage are very rare, extremely rare. But energy attacks that can make you physically sick, even if even when the Senator is not conscious about it, are much more common, and can cause physical illness. So when you look at that, you're like, Oh, well, I should protect myself energetically. Not very many people get possessed. And most people who think they're possessed are suffering from some form of mental illness. I will talk a little bit about that I will talk a little bit about you know, I have some experience dealing with people who contact me who are have a diagnosed mental illness. And this isn't to say they aren't deserving of help, or they aren't experiencing exactly what they think they're experiencing, you know, things that we consider delusions and hallucinations. My take on that is that they are they're experiencing spiritual phenomena there, they've, they're completely open, and they can't filter things out. And their brains perceive this as a threat. Like they're constantly under threat, and I really feel for people who have, you know, sort of paranoid schizophrenia. You know, I've had people contact me like, I'm under attack, I've been under attack my whole life, Gods and Goddesses are attacking me and I come from a long line of witches and I'm, you know, you know, been cursed by 13 generations of, and so, you know, when I hear that stuff, people contact me, I'll say, um, have you ever been diagnosed with a mental health condition? And invariably they'll say, Oh, yes, you know, schizophrenia or gets affective disorder or something along those lines are. And I've gone off my medication because I don't like the side effects. And that is a really unfortunate aspect to our medical based mental health system is that frequently, the medications that we use have really bad side effects. And so people decide to go off of their meds frequently and wind up sometimes in a worse position. You know, and I feel for those people, but, you know, my position is I won't, if somebody has a diagnosed condition of any kind, mental, physical, whatever, I won't work with them. If they're not seeing their doctor and they're not doing their treatment, they've gone off their meds, I'm, you know, probably not going to make things better. And there's a risk, I could make things worse. Even though I fully believe in shamanic healing, I think it is a good adjunct to Western medicine. And I don't want to ever do anything irresponsible or harmful to anyone. So you know, I've sent a few people away and say, you know, if you if I would be happy to see you, but I need a I need a note from your doctor saying that the your therapist saying that they don't think I'm going to do you harm. And that you are actively seeking treatment, and going in and participating in your treatment. And people rarely come back to me and I think that's unfortunate. Okay, so many people contact me who think they're being attacked by entities non stop or whatever, aren't, but some people are? And how do we determine that? Well, we use lots of spiritual means to determine that it's very difficult, very difficult to determine that without, you know, using physical means alone. And probably not possible. I don't know how to, I wouldn't know how to do it. So I will give you I'll give you an example from my own life and talk about, you know, some things that that happened. So years ago, I was in a relationship with somebody who is a practitioner of you, not just shamanism, but some other things as well. And we went through a kind of painful breakup was sort of dramatic and whatever. And, you know, this person was, was not well and sought a lot of revenge, I would say for, you know, being hurt about the breakup, and whatever else and did things like you know, tried to ruin my reputation amongst the community that I belong to, and that sort of thing. But a bunch of weird, kind of paranormal stuff started happening around me. And, you know, there were illnesses, there were things happening to electronic devices, there were, there was like a really weird run of bad luck there, you know, just a bunch of bunch of bunch of stuff. And I thought, I bet this person is cursing me. And I got some indications that that was occurring. And I didn't. And so here's a word of advice as well. Something you can do. If you feel like you're being cursed, you feel like you're under attack, actively. Seek out a professional and an even better if you get a second opinion. So I got a reading and I got a second reading from people who I didn't know but new, like new of new as very professionals, very highly respected. People very experienced, and who did different things than I did. Both of them independently confirmed that this was cursing going on. Both of them picked up on exactly who was doing it and exactly how I remember because one of the things this person did to me was throw garbage in around in my yard in my driveway by my car. And if I will, that's just odd, immature behavior and terrible and you know, whatever. And the first person I got a reading from said, they are cursing you and one of the ways they're doing this is by throwing something into your yard. And I was like, oh, and I hadn't said anything about this person other than I think it's possible. I'm being cursed and I'm trying to figure out why and who it is. And you know, definitely Got information. And then the second person I spoke to a few days later or whatever I said, you know, I think I think I may be cursed. And she's like, Yeah, absolutely yes, this is going on, I don't even need to read cards or whatever I can tell you this is going on. And this is and described the person and describe some things about the person. And so I got my confirmation. So if you think you're being cursed, or attacked, or whatever, and you don't know how to do your own divination, work, or determine if you're being cursed somehow, then seek out professional help seek out somebody who does curse unravelling, or hex twisting, or whatever you want to call it. So that's a little bit about risk and vulnerability, and threat and attack and damage and that sort of thing. So it's a way of thinking about stuff, right? I don't have to spend a lot of time learning to unravel curses, I'm not being cursed actively at this moment that I'm aware of. But I have protection in place just in case. It's sort of like you might live in a safe neighborhood, but it's still a good idea to lock your door. locking your door. Okay, so another aspect of risk management is how much does it cost to protect from a risk, right? So let's say that I'm afraid of I'm afraid of plane crashes, right. And so I don't want to fly, I don't want to fly anywhere. And I need to go, you know, I need to get 3000 miles away, I need to get across the country. Well, if I drive that, it's going to take days and days and days and days and days to get there, right. And so it's that is a costs, not necessarily monetary cost. For to overcome something that is low risk flying in a plane, it's very low risk activity. plane crashes are dramatic. And they're all over the news every time they happen. And so they stand out. But if you think about things from a logical perspective, so I don't personally know anybody who is casting voodoo curses at me. So I don't need to protect from those necessarily. But if I spent a little bit of time every day, sort of cleaning off my energy field and setting up shielding and stuff, if something were to happen, it's very, it's very low cost, it doesn't take a lot of time for me to put some effort into that. And it's sort of an all encompassing act where it sets up quite a lot of protection. So locking your doors is a good idea why it doesn't cost you anything to lock your door. It's called it takes less than a second to push a lock on a door twist a lock. And, you know, it provides you with a level of safety. Now, I have heard all kinds of junk advice about locking doors. People have told me Oh, if a burglar wants to get in, they will get in anyway. Sure. Absolutely. If somebody wants to break down your door, I don't care how much you've protected it they will find a way in. However, I do know that the vast majority of burglaries in the United States happen with Open Door happen through open doors and windows on the first floor of a building. They happen in the middle of the day. Why? Because people aren't usually home and burglars are lazy. If they weren't lazy, they would go out and get a job instead of stealing stuff from you. Right or they're trying to feed a drug habit or something. So locking your door is a good physical thing you can do that might prevent somebody from breaking into your house. I had somebody when when my kids were little they left the front door unlocked when we left and we usually go out through the side door so I didn't realize that the door was unlocked. And 10 minutes in we live like often the rural rural area hardly any crime 10 minutes after we drove away our alarm went off, somebody went through the door. You know they must have seen us driving off, waited 10 minutes to see if we come back and open the door. So we have you know we obviously have an alarm system and which was not very expensive and saved us money on our homeowners insurance and again, prevented somebody from getting into our house and stealing our stuff or causing damage or whatever they were there to do or potentially hurting somebody where right when we if we came home or something. So again, there's, you know, there's a word called cost benefits analysis. So costs can be the amount of time the amount of effort, the amount of money that you put into something. So in thinking about spiritual protection, I'll teach you a really quick, really quick exercise that I do when I'm walking in public. And I don't want to pick up everybody's bad vibes. You know, this is my sort of Walmart thing, if I have to walk through Walmart, I will use the I will say the phrase to myself shields up, which is a little bit of a trigger phrase for me, it also comes from Star Trek, shields up, and then I will push a blue bubble of energy out into place, it takes a second very little effort. And I feel like it really really protects me from bad emotional energy that is stuck in that space. Very low cost. Makes me feel better when I come out of Walmart and maybe protecting me from things like getting sick, or you know, picking up what we call in shamanism intrusions, which is energy that doesn't belong in your energy system. And so this shielding is a really, you know, it's a really good really low risk practice. Now, what if I learned some complicated 45 minute long banishing ritual, and I had to do it in my car, before I went into Walmart, and after I came out of Walmart, that doesn't sound like a very, that sounds like a very costly ritual. Sounds like something that's going that would take too much time to be worth my while, every time it probably keep me from keep me from going to Walmart ever. If I had to do that every time, that might not be a bad thing. I don't love. Sorry, if you like Walmart, I don't love going to Walmart. The energy there is is really can be really harsh. So think about stuff from that perspective. Like what can I do? So you might, you know, place protective measures we call Ward's wording is a thing in magic and in witchcraft and folk magic, you know, placing things like what's called a hamsa, which is an evil eye protection place those around your home. There are Fung Shui cures from Taoism that you could place to make the energy in your home harmonious. So there are things that you can do that you can place around that are low cost, low effort, that will provide you with a you know, energetic and spiritual protection in your space. So the next thing I want to talk about is called defense in depth, or another way of thinking about this is layered layers of protection. So, inside, you know, in your home, you have layers of you have layers of protection from the elements, right, you have an outer wall, even an inner wall, you have maybe double glazed windows, and then you might have a heating and cooling system. And you know, you have you have all of these layers that protect you from the elements from the outside and keep you comfortable and keep you private and all of those things. So there's a lot of protection that happens there. And the idea of defense in depth or layers of protection comes well, you know, I don't know where it originates, but when I think about it, I think about medieval castles in Europe, right? So if you're, you know, wanted to rule over some territory and protect yourself from invading forces. One of the best things you could do back in those days was to build a castle. And the first thing you thought about when you were going to put up a castle is where where am I going to put this castle? Right the environment itself is going to provide a layer of protection. If you have a castle and there's only one route into the castle, you build a castle on top of a hill as they often were. Over looking things in there's one road up. Very easy layer of protection there. There's only one way enemies could approach Okay, so the environment is one, the outer layer of protection for for castle. And then you would do, you know, you might dig a moat and fill it with water. We difficult, you know, to make it difficult for people to cross, it's another layer of protection then of course, castles have walls. And then inside those castles are, you know, soldiers probably with, you know, bows and arrows and other you know, implements of defense and offense inside the castle. And then that usually at the center, or you know, some really protected area of the castle, there was something called a keep. And the keep is a place that was extra fortified and sort of the last bastion of defense, if the enemy got past your walls, you could retreat to the keep, and hold them off even longer and hope that you know, hope that they either you know, ran out of supplies eventually or reinforcements arrived or whatever. Okay, so you had all of these layers of defense, defense in depth, right. So in your computer system, you know, you have the, you have the, you know, you might have network security, right, your router provides a layer of security over the network. And then your computer operating system itself, you know, provide some security and you hopefully have antivirus software that checks things and all of that. The last line of defense in any computer system is a human being. So you can definitely do things to mess up your computer, you can definitely let attackers in, you've probably heard of phishing attacks, where people send things over email, you know, they send malicious stuff over email and try to get you to open it or to click on a link that's malicious or something like that. There's something called Human Engineering and hacking where they they try to get you to give give up your passwords or that sort of thing. And so with a with a castle defense, right if you you know, if Bob was in charge of closing the drawbridge and he forgets it he was the last line of defense right? Or you have the guys with the swords inside the castle fighting off the enemy if they breach the walls. So it's spiritual defense you have you know, you you have helping spirits you have spirits that you might pray to or if you are shamanistic, you might journey to or call upon, you might have images of saints if you're religious, or pray to whatever the you know, God or God or crowds or gods and goddesses that you worship, you know, that's a high level defense against things spiritually, right. But there's also the environment, right, and I talked about walking through Walmart, you know, if I, if I keep my environment, spiritually clean and uplifting, and I don't wander into dark for, you know, into the middle of fairy rings and dark forests and, you know, do do silly things. That's another sort of layer of defense. Okay, then, you know, closer in, I might wear an amulet or talisman or have words around me. And then I might do rituals, I might learn vanishings I'll talk about what a banishing is in a moment, I might learn banishing rituals, I might do this energetic protection, that sort of thing. But I am my last line of defense. And again, if I, you know, run into problems, I might hire a professional to help me out. So this is what I sort of mean by defense in depth. And again, you're always sort of the last line of defense, the things that you do the things you choose to do your behaviors, how you take care of yourself, and your systems, your various systems, meaning your physical body, your energy body, your spiritual body, your soul, body, all of these things. You got to take care of them, right. So again, I might I gotta have the most secure household in the world. But if I stopped taking care of my hygiene, and I might get sick, right or if I eat a lot of bad food, I can weaken my body. And the other thing is, if my body is weak, you are also energetic. You can be energetically vulnerable. So spiritually, energetically, you can be violent villas while these systems interpenetrate interact and communicate with each other, and are dependent upon each other, particularly your energy and energy, body and physical body. They interface quite a bit. This is why things like acupuncture, Reiki and energy healing work. So you have to take care of yourself. Now there are a lot of spiritual systems out there and religions and other spiritual systems that talk about purity. And they will have you do things like bave, before a ritual, taking care to clean the physical body, but also cleaning the energy body. And I'll give you a hint, salt is a really powerful, energetic thing. So salt scrubs in a shower or bath are really great Epsom salts work because the crystals absorb the energy and then it washes down the drain. So really, really good thing to do. If you ever feel kind of gross, like you've picked up some bad energy, you know, get keep some keep some Epsom salts and some salt scrubs on hand. You can pick up that stuff at a grocery store for crying out loud, and very inexpensively keep those on hand the good, really good cures. So let's talk a little bit about rituals as well. There are different types of rituals that you can do if you feel energetically impure, or even if you're under some sort of attack. When I was being cursed, I did a lot of ritual work, which involved doing protective work around my home around myself or my loved ones working with my helping spirits. So it's, I want to go a little bit into what types of spiritual things are, quote unquote threats. I use that term not to make you feel scared or you know, whatever, but just because it's the word I know from from doing risk analysis and that kind of thing. And so let's talk a little bit about some of the different types of threats spiritually that are out there. So I talked about curses, already curses or any sort of painful magic, anything where somebody tries to take control over you or cause you harm physically, mentally, emotionally, cause you fear cause you depression, what have you, um, curses can, curses can cause a lot of, we'll call luck issues. So if somebody thinks they're cursed, I'll talk you know, talk it out with them first before I do the work to determine if they're cursed. Because sometimes I can just say, well, it doesn't sound doesn't sound like a curse to me, you would have more stuff going on. So you would you know, maybe have a run of bad luck, which might include bad health you know, Phantom Pains, things that can be diagnosed along with, you know, weird occurrences stuff showing up in your house is sometimes there are entities involved, sometimes not. Okay, so cursing is, you know, painful magic. And I actually lump some, like love spells and stuff into this where if somebody were to cast a love spell on you, to emotionally manipulate you to fall in love with them. That is, in my opinion, taking away your free will. Not something I recommend. If you and somebody have feelings for each other, and you do some magic, maybe together to intensify your passion, or you do magic work that is not targeted at a specific person, but say you want to manifest more love romantic love into your life. Great. I think that's totally fine. But don't do stuff that takes away people's free will. That is bad juju. It's bad karma. You know, it will cause you problems. And if somebody knows what they're doing, they can there. They can reverse spells, all kinds of counter magic, spell reversal and counter attacking and all of that sort of thing. Right. So so that's when they sort of sort of consider spells cursing painful magic ton of stuff out there. It's been done since the dawn of time, they will find lots of like Greek and Roman like led tablets with curses carved into them, you know naming specific people they'll like carve a curse and then throw it into a well you know not to mention the fact that you well with lead curse enough so all kinds of curses, there are shamans who throw curses and magical attacks at each other. So um you know, maybe I'll do a whole episode on cursing at some point but just far too complicated for me to get into too much detail here because I want to get into some other types of things. Then there are what we consider like energy attacks, spiritual energy attacks, so people are attacking your aura, your chakras, your energy system to cause a disruption usually in your health but also it can cause emotional dysregulation all kinds of stuff. The evil eye is one notorious type of energy attack with the evil eye is there are some people who are born with the ability to do the evil eye and maybe even unaware of it. But it's a magical attack that is usually cast through the gaze and there is intense negative emotion behind it and like a laser beam can burn a hole in your protective system. So imagine if I could you know point some sort of energy weapon at you and disrupt your immune system you might not immediately get sick but down the line you could get deathly ill right and that is a little bit with the with the ELI is like and the evil eye you know is known across many many many cultures by different names you know, malo Keo and in which means, you know, bad or evil I in Italian, but there are different words for it in different cultures, you see it, you know, you see protective charms against evil eye, in all kinds of cultures. So that is another, that's another type of threat unknown. Another type of threat is things that things that we do to ourselves. That because we don't really know what we're doing, so you could right now, at this moment, go on the internet and download instructions for evoking a demon in your living room. Or a gym or some, you know, opening a portal into a chaos dimension or whatever, with zero experience zero training. Now back in, you know, back in the days where these grim was, which are grimoires, or spell books or big books of magic, where they, when they were written, they were written by people who had been studying and practicing their entire life and probably apprenticed other under other people read tons of works. These books were incredibly rare, incredibly expensive, could not just be you couldn't just, you know, go walk down to the mall, which didn't exist at the time and go into the bookstore and say, Hey, give me a book to summon demons. Right? You had to be very wealthy, to own any books. It was. I remember reading something that went the time. John D, a very maybe famous guy, you may know him you may not know him, he was the court straw among many things. He was a court astrologer for Queen Elizabeth the first. He was a he knew he knew literally all the knowledge there was to know by mankind in Western Europe at that time, he had studied every subject. He had several 1000 books in his collection, which was many times more than the libraries of Cambridge and Oxford combined. Think about that. Books were incredibly rare, incredibly expensive, and often not written in a language that you understood like you would have to I mean, today, you know, John D, probably had five or six languages under his belt, at least, you know, English, Latin and Greek and then maybe several others. As people did with classical education, we had to be very wealthy to have that so not everybody could do this. You had to be educated. You had to go through training you had to go through years of purification. Today, just download a ritual and summon the demon in your living room. You know, or, you know, some powerful spirit or do Jinn magic or whatever. If you join a magical Lodge, for example, magical organization or magical Lodge, you would pass through many degrees of practice, and that would include practical, daily spiritual work. So I have encountered individuals may have talked about this in other podcasts as well. And I could see stuff buzzing about them, I could see beings that were, you know, they had picked up all kinds of hitchhikers from opening doors that they didn't know what to do with and didn't know how to close and didn't know how to protect themselves from the entity so we can be our own. We can be our own attackers if we're not careful. I see this very frequently with people who use a tremendous amount of psychedelics as a shortcut, to instead of doing shamanic or other spiritual work that just, you know, I remember somebody walking into a lecture I was giving, and they could see little beings buzzing around his head, like little airplanes flying around, flying around or you know, the, in the cartoons when somebody gets bonked on the head. And birds fly around them. It was it was like that. And this guy's eyes were like, glazed over and unfocused. And I talked to him. And he was incredibly nice guy. And I was talking about shamanism in this lecture. And he came up afterwards and I spoke with him. And he's like, Yeah, I guess I've done every thing under the sun. I've done ayahuasca, LSD, psilocybin peyote, he had a list, you know, and I could tell, I'm like, Well, you opened a lot of doors, right? He goes, Yeah, he goes, and once you buy the ticket, you're on the ride, there's no control over it. So you know, and I know of people who have been hospitalized from doing Ayahuasca I know if people have died from doing ayahuasca, things like that. I don't know why people think you can just experiment with this stuff, this very powerful plant medicine, you know, taken frequently out of context when you go. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with plant medicine. What I'm saying is when it's used recreationally abused, taken out of cultural context, or used by people without the requisite training and experience. It's incredibly dangerous, physically, emotionally, spiritually. Be careful with that stuff folks. Get with I don't know how you know, if somebody is legitimate or knows what they're doing. There have been people who like flown down to Peru to get with a shaman that they found online or whatever. Take an iOS can been sexually assaulted or robbed or killed or whatever, you know. So not to be into like, the scare tactics too much or whatever. But just be careful with that stuff. And be careful with magic build your build your way up, build your knowledge, build your experience, when you do magical training, the way that it's supposed to be done. And you're practicing say, you know, you join an organization like a Golden Dawn type organization or whatever, you're doing banishing rituals every day from day one. Every single day, a couple times a day, you're doing banishing rituals. So you like what happens is you develop spiritually you light up on the astral plane, and that can be attractive to spirits. And sometimes you don't want those spirits to be hanging around you. Right, like bothersome guests. You don't want people just walking into your house when you're taking a shower or, you know, whatever walking around in your skivvies likewise, you don't want spirits to just like come and take up residence or decide they want to, you know, drain your energy or cause you to have thoughts and that aren't yours or emotions and do things. So they start with banishing. And they start with rituals that build up the magical credence and there's great two, two authors that I like really like one named Rufus Opus. writes about ceremonial particularly planetary magic. Another name Jason Miller, who writes about sorcery, lots of different topics. I think they're loosely associated, they at least belong to the same or did belong to one same magical organization and they, you know, I've known them to talk about each other as well, I like both of both of these guys a lot. And they have both talked about the Roman goddess Metis and Metis being this, you know, beyond being a goddess, also being a mantle of magical authority that one can don. And that offers authority over spirits that you might be conjuring, but also protection and that sort of thing. And it takes some work. It takes initiation, it takes practice, it takes creating magical implements, there's a bunch of work that goes into this stuff. You know, there are there are a lot of books out there now who just like pick up and start doing spells and whatever in some of them are not very risky, right? You can pick up a book on candle magic and start doing, you know, candle spells. But if you started to do evocations and invocations, and you're calling calling in spirits and stuff, and you don't really know what you're doing, I think it can be risky. Nothing, absolutely nothing in this world, including doing nothing is risk free. Right, I talked about risk. Risk is the danger of a threat. Or the likelihood, I will say the likelihood of a threat coming to pass and causing damage, and the potential sort of multiplied by the potential damage that can be done. Right. So think about that, from a risk perspective, if I don't know what I'm doing, if I go and operate a chainsaw, and they don't know what I'm doing. That's a risky activity. Right? My ignorance is part of that risk. You know, chainsaws are risky enough. Obviously, people get hurt using chainsaws, all the time, right? chainsaws, if you don't know chainsaws can kick back into your face if you don't use them correctly. Or you can cut through a log and swing it into your leg or grab, you know, whatever people do with chainsaws. But your ignorance is adds to risk. You know, if you are brand new to esoteric practice, start with something safer shamanism. You know, the way that it's taught in core shamanism is, you know, is particularly safe. In my experience, you know, you're working, there are ways to determine that you're working with helping spirits that you should be working with and that sort of thing that are beneficial when you're working with compassionate spirits. I'm not proselytizing about shamanism. Shamanism has other things to it that make it challenging. It does stir things up in your shadow and force you to confront them. And if you're not ready for that, you are not ready for that. So you know, those are some of the various kinds of threats, there are other kinds of threats, things like thought forms, which are thoughts that are transmitted that sometimes land on us and get stuck. Right. So an example of this is if I, you know, growing up, and I wanted to learn to play the piano, and my parents constantly told me, nobody in this family is musical, you can't learn to play the piano, they might sort of transfer that thought to me, and I might never either take up the piano, or if I do, I might, might not be good at it. Right. And that thought is transferred in part verbally, but in part energetically as well. If you don't talk about thought forms very much. But it is it is a thing in the word meme, you know, has come to me in like funny pictures with text we share on the internet. But the word meme, actually, the original connotation of that was an idea of virus and idea that spreads like a virus. Right? And you can probably think of some, you know, some of these ideas that get that gets spread around. You know, things like I don't know, an urban legend, I guess might be a type of meme. Things that kind of take on a life of their own and spread like a virus from person to person to person. An interesting one an interesting phenomenon I've seen happen are these very expensive drink containers like when my my daughters were young, they had to have younger they had to have a Hydro Flask right? I'm just like, why would you want a $50 thermos, like, that's ridiculous had to have it, saved their money, pulled it, you know, got their birthday money together and all that and bought themselves these $50 thermoses they don't even use anymore now now. Now it's on to Stanley Stanley's like 100 year old company that made thermoses and somebody's like, oh, we can make this thing go viral. If we get the kids into these things. Now they're buying these $50, Stanley, because it's no longer the Hydroflask will it keep your drink colder? It will keep your water colder for 10 minutes longer or something? I don't know. I don't know. It's not what it's about. It's about the brand and what it represents in this idea and the trend, and everybody's got to have it. Right. It's like a virus that spreads around. So we want to be careful of those things, those ideas that can spread their thought forms. I'm not saying don't buy if you want to Stanley water bottle, that's fine. I'm not judging, or anything. It's just an interesting, it's just an interesting phenomenon to me that I don't I don't necessarily understand it. But that's okay. I don't, I don't have to understand the appeal for it to be appealing to other people are valid, and I'm not judging. I'm sure there's lots of things that are appealing to me that many other people don't understand as well. So with that, I will give you some things to think about. If you are going to be doing esoteric practice of any kind, particularly things that are like conjuring or ritual work or that sort of thing. It would behoove you to learn some vanishing, I won't tell you what time to learn, there are many types of vanishing you can learn. But there are lots of traditions about banishing, which is creating, you know, creating space around you that is essentially pure. It's purifying sanctifying space for doing ritual work and that sort of thing. banishing also, if you do it, right has the effect of changing your aura, making your aura more effective as a shield. So learn that learn some shielding. And if you're really really into it if you're really really want to learn some learn some basic protection and reversal magic. In fact, one of the authors I remember Jason Miller has a book called protection reversal magic that I think is really good. But there's lots of stuff out there you can learn. With that I will leave you for today. I hope this has been helpful. I will talk to you all very soon.

Announcer 58:25

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to mainesharman.com That's maineshaman.com

EP63 UFOs, UAPs, Aliens, and Fairies

Announcer 0:27

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:49

Hello, hello, hello, everybody. So nice to talk to you, I realized I'm doing two of these in just a couple a few days apart. After taking a hiatus of nearly a year, I realized it was May. These and now we're in March of 2024. A lot of things happened in that period of time, life wise and teaching wise and all kinds of stuff. Today we're going to talk about aliens and UFOs and UAP. 's, and fairies and the occult, and Gods and Goddesses and beings, entities, all kinds of names. And I want to start by saying that I was inspired to do this podcast by another podcast. So I want to give them credit where credit is due, I'm not going to steal what they're talking about, or whatever. But the topic was an interview. On a podcast that I've been listening to, called Lux occult, l u x, OCC ult. I highly recommend it the host Lexi's really good, I have no affiliation with them, I've never met them, I will probably reach out to them and see if I could guest on their podcast sometime and maybe bring Lexi on as guest here, something along those lines. But their next last episode, I think it was episode 75 or something. And I can't remember the name of the guests at this point. Terrible of me. But there's an occultist and they were talking about sort of the UFO phenomenon, which some people call UAP phenomenon. And they were talking about it in a way that made a lot of sense to me in a way that I've come to understand this phenomena. And I'm going to say upfront, if you ask me the question, is this UFO phenomena, aliens from out of space that have been visiting Earth for a long time? And there are conspiracies where the government has captured UFOs and yada, yada, yada? The my answer is gonna be I don't know. I don't know, I don't have definitive answers about that. I have things I believe, and I'll talk about those and why I believe those. But also my beliefs may be way off. And I want to talk about that as well. Because it is important to understand that everything we experience, everything we understand, in this world, we understand through our various lenses of belief. So and that's going to be really important to today's conversation. Or, you know, one way conversation. I don't have any guests today. Just me. But I'm gonna talk about my understanding of this phenomenon. And why is this why, you know, when we're talking about the realm of spirit, why would we bring you a foes into this? Yeah, there's sometimes considered paranormal phenomena. And I'll probably use the word UFO a lot. I realized, like the government, the US government has started using UAP, which is unidentified aerial phenomena are just probably a more accurate term. Because these things might not be objects and the, you know, some of them might not be objects in the sense of what we think of them as objects, you know, as physical things. Some of them, some of them clearly are physical things they have. Beyond being sighted and being able to be recorded. We have radar recording, so radar bouncing off something and returning and physical effects from these things. And I'm not going to dive deep into all of the conspiracies from cattle mutilation to all of that, only, as it reflects on for cultural mythology, and I think it is really, really important to look at these things through the lens of our mythology, the paradigm that we live through, right? How we view the paradigm, our private paradigm is our model of how the world works, right? And so we are living in a technological age, we're living, you know, a couple, 100 years ago, there weren't flying machines, right? There were no airplanes, there are no spacecraft, there's no internet, there was no wireless communication, all of that stuff has sprung up. And now we went through the Industrial Revolution. We're now deep into the technological revolution, where we have AI, everybody, everybody's using AI, even if you don't think you're using it, you know, AI is being used by products that you use these days, if you're online, if you're, you know, writing letters to people or emails or you know, that sort of thing or using virus protection or any of these things. Um, excuse me. The, so, this phenomena of flying things, things appearing in the sky, that sometimes have, you know, unusual beings, entities associated with them is not new. This hasn't been you know, the UFO phenomena word UFO was coined, I think, in the 1940s. But we have records records of these craft going back as far as we have records of anything, we have, you know, in the Vedas, we have the Romanos which are these flying castles that the gods came out of. And my view on this phenomena is that it is always viewed through the lens of current cultural understanding as is everything, by the way, is is everything. So, when, you know, these things have been going on, since, you know, maybe before humans walked on Earth. And originally, there would be, you know, the flying machines of the gods or angels, if you read about biblical actual biblical descriptions of angels not talking about the Renaissance paintings of fat babies are beautiful women and dresses with wings. Your angels in the Bible who were able to walk amongst man and not be in be confused for man. But some of these angels, particularly in the Old Testament, were like interlocking spinning rings with hundreds of eyes on them and spouting fire and so bright that it hurt the eyes to look on. Hey, that sounds like a spaceship. It sounds like an alien spaceship. And honestly, you know, people being pulled up into heaven. And so in. In the old times, I think there's a lot of overlap and a lot of what I do in my shamanic work, and my spiritual work, in my understanding of things is looking at how these things were understood, or talked about or described over time, by many different cultures, cultures that didn't necessarily contact one another or have, you know, inherit anything from one another. So, an example of in modern parlance, you have little green people, right you have or the greys or all of these races of alien beings, some tall, some small, you know, some look like humans, some look different than humans. Well, in how many different cultures I have, I have a list somewhere of something like 200 different terms, from different cultures for little spiritual beings, from Fairies, elves, gnomes, brownies, Green coats. Those are just some of the English terms of men who name in Hawaii and con Tumblr in West Africa, and different terminologies throughout Asia and different terminologies throughout South America. They're talking about extremely similar phenomena, human like but non human beings, who have magical powers, who sometimes help people and sometimes harm people who, you know, can phase in and out of physical reality. This is so unbelievably common. It's in just about every culture I can think of, if not, every culture, I just haven't heard about their, you know, their disk. option for these beings. So, you know, we have the fairy faith in the sort of the the British Isles in surrounding areas. And there are people who still follow that faith today and I, as a shamanic practitioner have worked with the Fae quite a bit, I can tell you that there are many, many different species, some of them enjoy interacting with humans, some of them do not. Some of my earliest paranormal experiences and I have had more paranormal experiences in my life, once you start entering this life, the paranormal world just seems to say, Hey, how you doing, let's be a part of your each other's lives.

Something happens, your perception opens up or you glow in a way that they're, you know, paranormal beings are attracted to you, I don't even really love the word paranormal. To me, it's just normal. It's just, you know, most people going around in 3d reality, don't have the same experiences. But I've had a lot of shared paranormal experiences where the people, you know, in a fairly large group, several times have experienced many of the same things I have, or have very overlapping descriptions, that's really hard. You know, you ask two people who witness a car accident. And you'll get two different descriptions from you know, ask them five minutes, different perspectives different, we have this sort of belief that memory is like a video recorder. And it is not memory is constructed. And it is influenced by our past experiences or education or upbringing, our culture, and our particular viewpoint. And it is not just a tape recorder, to us, now an old fashioned term. But something that you know, that if you recorded video on your phone wouldn't change from time to time, but your memories will change over time based on experiences. And your ability to recall things is not pure. There's a lot of research on eyewitness testimony being particularly unreliable. So let's talk about so anyway, just to you know, to go through it before I jump into the next sort of section, what am I talking about? Over time, the paradigms have changed before we became a technological species that we're always a technological species from like a toolmaking perspective. But before modern industrial technology, and digital technology and understanding of quantum physics and things like that, early on, these would have been Gods goddesses, you know, the dead it would have been fairies Mina Hoon, a con Tom bleh. And then as we get into the era, where people start driving cars, and there are flying machines, and all of these things, now, all of a sudden, these are craft piloted by beings from outer space as we start to understand space. So as we start to understand things, we place our new understanding on this phenomena, and it became that becomes the explanation for it. You know, some current people would explain the UFO UAP alien phenomena as interdimensional beings now that we're understanding things like parallel universes and you know, M brains or M theory, right? These, these membranes of reality that can sort of touch each other, and we understand gravity waves and we understand, you know, and who knows, who knows what comes after this. Right. So it is our explanation of, I believe, very similar, or same phenomena, over the ages of human existence has changed based on our paradigm. paradigm is, you know, this model of how the universe works, right? We've gone through big paradigm shifts. You know, it's really funny, my children, my kids were born in 2006. They have never grown up in an age without cell phones or the internet or anything like that. And when I tried to talk to them about like, what payphones were and how you couldn't just reach out and talk to anybody you wanted to anytime you wanted to and how if you wanted to take a picture of somebody used a film camera and took that film in and you might have to wait a week before it came back to see if your pictures even came out. It blows their minds hit bluff. Like you were living in the stone age. You know, were you also hunting mastodons with flint, napt spears. So we've been through some big paradigm shifts, you know, and it doesn't go. I'm sure we've all noticed some changes, even in the past few years, we're now in this AI era where AI is taking over. And with every technology, there's a bunch of fear that happens, right? You know, there's fear of AI, there's fear of robots, there was fear of the internet. You know, back in the day, I remember it well. There was fear of people having video cameras, there was fear of, you know, radio and all kinds of stuff. Going back. So we see this crop up. And, you know, part of this phenomena is dealing with some, I'm not saying this phenomena is caused completely by our fear, but the way that we interpret it often is caused by our fear. And in the podcast I was talking about, the guest was talking about how this is all associated with us trying to deal with death, what happens when we die. And that, again, you can trace that through history, right? Or, you know, even pre history when we could do some research there. You know, we would go with the gods and goddesses, or we would go into the fairy realm, if people went missing or people died, or, you know, whatever it would be fairies could have been vampires, werewolves, all kinds of things, right. And nowadays, there have been UFO cults, where, you know, the notorious one I'm thinking of is the Heaven's Gate cult. They, you know, that all took their lives. When was that back in the late 90s. And all thought they were going on a UFO that was following the Hale Bopp comet, you know, whole group of people took their lives to go to this novo. So, again, it's, you know, it comes out in a way that is associated with with our way of making sense of, of death, what happens to us when we die. So that it seems very wrapped up in there. So when we're gonna move on just a little bit, and I want to talk about UFO disclosure, and sort of what's going on with the government, particularly in the US, having, you know, in the past couple of years released a bunch of footage, there's been some testimony in front of Congress. I want to say this, I want to say that we cannot trust. This isn't just paranoid speaking, we cannot trust anything coming out of our military intelligence industrial complex. You can't trust anything they say, because secrecy is their number one rule. Second of all, like any of this footage that came out, I mean, we don't know, we don't know what it is. You know, we've heard people say, you know, we, we there seems to be the same strange technological craft, we haven't on video, you know, taken by fighter pilots doing maneuvers that they, you know, laws of physics currently don't. I don't like the phrase violates the laws of physics or breaks the laws of physics, nothing is breaking the laws of physics, there just utilizing laws, either that we don't understand yet or in ways that we don't understand, but nothing breaks the laws of physics. Everything follows natural law. There's nothing outside of natural law. Now, that being said, you know, our ideas about what those natural laws are, are sometimes proven wrong or incomplete. Or they're different models. You know. So one of the laws of physics is that faster than time travel or you know, faster than light travel is not possible. And while that is technically true, there are actual mathematical models showing that we could move a vehicle by moving space time, past that vehicle faster than light speed, it wouldn't actually the vehicle would actually be traveling, we would move space and time past it. Now, I'm not smart enough to understand how that works. But we already have a model of how that would work. We just can't make it work yet, because in the current model, it requires too much Energy. We can't produce enough energy to get that to work. But imagine a culture that lives in space. What we think of a space, where the aliens to them imagine a culture on a planet on the distant star that life developed a billion years. You know, think about what, you know somebody 200 years ago looking at our technical technology today would think they would think we are either gods and goddesses or witches, or what have you able to do magic, even like a lighter, a Bic lighter would be amazing technology to these people.

You know, incandescent light bulbs, electricity, even though electricity was known for a long time. You know, Ben Franklin figured out that lightning and electricity are the same thing. And there were batteries in ancient Mesopotamia, look up the Baghdad Battery, we've lost a lot of tech, we've lost her ideas of what tech existed prior, you know, to current technology, but the Greeks look up the Antikythera device, which was a complex mechanical computer that very accurately calculated things like astronomical positions and eclipses and stuff like that incredibly complex piece of technology that was found at the bottom of the ocean in a shipwreck. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that defies what we think like in every other day, I'm reading an archaeological article, it says, oh, we need to push the dates back for the discovery of this, or we need to push the dates back for discovery this. At this point, we are learning stuff so quickly, about human origins. And there's still so much. You know, there's there's a lot of stuff, archaeologically speaking, that's underwater now, because of sea levels rising and continental shift and things like that. So there's a lot of things about humanity that we just don't know. Not to mention, you know, asteroid impact that happened, you know, 11,000 years ago. Graham, Graham Hancock has been talking about this forever. And people are like, Oh, no, that's unscientific hogwash. Well, now they're starting to accept it. And so imagine living in the United States. Now, today, with the technology we have, with the infrastructure we have with the homes, we live in all of this stuff. And an asteroid hits the Pacific Ocean, and causes 1000 foot wall of water to cross the United States, sets the forests everywhere on fire and chokes the air with smoke, followed by, you know, 100 years of winter, what technology would be left? What buildings would be left? What vehicles would be left. And it's there's nothing, you know, it's funny, there are a lot of places where where I live, here in Maine, where there are abandoned vehicles in the woods, for whatever reason, there's like a 1946 Packard on this hiking trail out in the middle of nowhere. And this thing, you know, has been there for under 100 years, and is just rotting and falling apart, it is not going to last 1000 years, or even a couple 100 years. So it will be gone. The only thing left will be things that were made out of stone or earth. And some of those things if you have 1000 foot wall of water, crossing the continent at 150 miles an hour or however quickly are going to be buried in silt and may never be found in it maybe hundreds of feet of silt. That covers it. Cities will be gone in a blink of an eye. You know there be a few survivors who are people are living on the top of mountains or something and but their technology would be gone and so if unless they were, you know survivalists with primitive skills they're not going to, you know, pass on their knowledge and bloodline, and so anyway, imagine that. And that's and that's where we are, right. So, again, I don't think we can trust anything you know, coming out of, you know, son Sunsoo that wrote The Art of War and The Art of War. It says deception is the basis of all combat in You know, our military industrial intelligence complex knows that and has been deceiving us in doing all kinds of crazy things over the years. So let's talk specifically about the UFO slash UAP phenomena out there stuff, stuff in the sky that people are seeing. And what is the explanation for that? And I want to say, first of all, that UFO does not equal alien spacecraft. Automatically. UFO means unidentified flying object, meaning I see something in the sky. I don't know what it is. Period. So people say I don't believe in UFOs. And I'm like, well, that's dumb. You should believe in UFOs. Have you ever seen something in the sky, and then later found out it was a bird or some sort of drone or some weird thing? At one time, that was a UFO, you explained it later, but it was a UFO was an unidentified flying object. So people see a lot of stuff in the sky, where I live. I live in Maine, and there's a Facebook group dedicated to unknown things. So people will post video and pictures and whatever. And they're like 1000 photos of the Skylink satellites that travel in a straight line. You can see them in different areas. You can see them at night when the sky is clear. And they're fairly low Earth. So they look like these little white dots that are traveling in the line very quickly across the sky, as Elon Musk's satellites, but for many people, those are UFOs until somebody explains them. So UFO just means unidentified flying object. Most people know this, but most people use that term to mean flying saucers with little aliens scooting around in the sky with them? And that might be an explanation for some of them. Or it might not. I don't know. For sure. So there are, you know, most of the things that people see that are that are in the beginning are that are unexplained, can later be explained. So, you know, a lot of UFOs are seen near military bases, the military experiments with aircraft, different types of aircraft, including drones all the time. And these things, these projects are secret, and the technology that you and I know about. And this was confirmed by somebody that I knew who used to work for NASA. The technology we know about were at least at least 12 years behind what the military has and is capable of. For some tech that may be 20 to 25 years. So the military has been able to do things for 12 to 25 years that we are maybe just able to find out about now. You remember the stealth bomber when that first came out, and it was like whoo, they've been testing that for who knows a decade, whatever out in area 51. And a tremendous amount of UFO sightings around area 51 were this stealth bomber. This isn't to say that they're, you know, maybe there's some alien spacecraft at Area 51. But that is an area where they test experimental aircraft, spy planes, stealth bombers, all of that stuff. There is a huge military black budget, meaning we don't we can't know what it is. We don't know what it is. And that's been a big thing in Congress as well, where Congress is, you know, some members of Congress are like, Listen, you got to start telling us what you're doing. Like we can just give you money to do whatever with some of the recent testimony about UFOs has been in that area has been specific to budgetary type stuff. So does the US government have alien spacecraft that they've recovered, some of which, being ancient? Um, you know, I believe it's a strong possibility, you know, whether that is alien from outer space, whether these are you know, they're different potential explanations for what these craft are right. aliens from outer space is the one that we go to the most it's been in our media. And I gotta tell you got a lot of our media is shaped by the narrative that has been put out there by the powers that be so it's very possible that there's there's there are active disinformation programs that come out by by governments all over the world. Right. Again, deceit, The Art of War, deceit is the basis of all warfare. So there's a lot of misleading stuff out there. You know, and there's there's a lot of misinformation. There's a lot of very, very secret stuff. But check out a story by something I found really compelling was this guy, Bob Lazar, who came out and said, You know, I worked at I worked at Area 51. And, you know, people would be like people that either believe Him or didn't believe him. And I'm like, yeah, there was the spacecraft. And I was working on the power supply. And they had seven of these spacecraft that they dug up from all over the world, some of which were ancient. And they were powered by element 115. Now, element 115 is not on the periodic table.

And, but ages before, we have recently said, oh, yeah, there is a stable isotope of element 115. Bob Lazar was talking about this, a decade or two before that scientific information came out. And then he said, You know, I got my, you know, doctorate or whatever I studied at Berkeley, I think it was Berkeley or whatever. And people and I worked for this, I forget which defense contractor and whatever. And they came out and said, there's no record of them ever going to school here. There's no record of him working for this company. And then people found records, they found an old company directory that had his number in it. And they found some, you know, newspaper article where he went to school where he went to school. So somebody went and wiped out, this guy's records, his school records and his employment records. So there's a bunch of hinky crap going on, because this guy came out and was sort of started to talk about area 51, and what was going on there and that sort of thing. And you can, I find it to be a very compelling story. And one of the things he talks about was, everything was really compartmentalized. So people only knew their little portion. And he only saw these vehicles fly a couple of times, he was working on the power supply. But there were, you know, people who are able to control them. And he was able to get inside one of them at one point and whatever. And he got in trouble because he brought people out to area 51. And they had camcorders at the time, you know, recording on VHS tape or whatever, you're just bringing civilians out, there's like, Hey, you got to check this out? Well, you know, obviously, that's a big no, no, for secret projects. So check out the story if you're interested in this. So it's very possible that there are physical objects that can fly through the sky, and even underwater because apparently they can go underwater in the sky, that can do things that are beyond our current understanding of Aeronautics and physics, although we have there are, you know, theories about how we can make certain things work using gravity waves, gravity wave generator, or something? I don't know. It's beyond my understanding. But again, the important thing to me is that this is a phenomena that has been understood through the lens of various points of human development, human human culture, human, you know, human technological understanding over the years. And, you know, Graham Hancock, again, in one of his books, talks about how the fairy phenomena or phenomenon, but phenomenon, there's multiple phenomenon, phenomena. There, he talks about how the way people describe alien abduction, and Alien Encounters is parallel, almost exactly the same as the way they did. They talked about fairy abduction, right? So you have people kidnapped in. So in the British Isles and other places where they believed in fairies, you had people who were abducted by fairies, people abducted by aliens these days. They were taken for a period of time and where they would have missing time, same thing, both places. There were fairy human hybrid, so they would meet with humans and create these crossbreeds. Again, fairies, aliens, we've heard the same stories. And sometimes they were returned after some period of time with these stories to tell and you know, whatever, whatever. You can draw a ton of parallels between these things. Which makes me think that that people are describing the same phenomenon whether it's real or, or some thing that we are coming, Dreaming Out of the collective unconscious, or it is spiritual phenomena. Now, let me take this. Let me extend this and take this into a little bit of a different realm and talk about the spiritual for a minute. Now, I come from a shamanic background, which is animist, and that we believe that everything has a spirit or everything is a spirit. So dogs, cats have spirit, as humans do, but so do rocks and trees and rivers. And the world is full of non human spirits. In fact, human spirits are a tiny, tiny minority of entities and beings that you can encounter out there. There are also spirits of the dead, there are spirits that we would label gods and goddesses or angels and demons, or what have you. Those labels are all extremely limited, very limited the word God. And I don't mean the Source consciousness, they're going to talk about God with capital G, right? The source of all things, the one unifying consciousness, I'm talking about Gods and Goddesses from various belief systems, and whatever any description of them is highly limited and limited by again, our capability, our paradigm, our reality tunnel to use a term, coined by Robert Anton Wilson, very hard for us to step outside of our reality tunnel, very hard for us to understand something that is so outside of our experience, and knowledge and culture. And yet, we want to make sense out of everything is a natural human instinct to make sense out of things, right? It's a survival instinct. If I see a wild animal that I've never encountered before, I first of all have to understand that it's an animal, and that it's not a plant that's just sitting there. But it's something that moves around, and it may have teeth and claws. And I have to understand if it poses a danger to me, or I don't survive and pass my genes on, and my kids don't pass their genes on, right. So human beings want to make sense out of things. But we can only make sense out of things with our extremely limited resources or extremely limited viewpoint. Now to us, reality, 3d ordinary reality can seem very well, you can see like, this is the end of the line, this is what it is. Everything I'm experiencing is absolutely objective. And I'm here to tell you that that's not true. And anybody who's taken an entheogen or done shamanic journeying knows that's that that's not true that there are so many layers to reality that we don't perceive normally. But we can if we are able to shift our consciousness and different ways. Very, very limited. And that's something to understand that if you can understand that, if you can understand that all of the reality you experience is not objective, all of it. Or I should say, none of it is objective. To undo a double negative there, and none of the reality you experience is objective. Everything you experience is subjective. It comes through the, you know, looking around the environment you're in this comes through your limited perceptions. Now you have you know, you have three types of color sensors in your eye, right, they can see, you know, red, I think it's red, green, and blue. And every color you can observe is made up of some combination of those things. Right. Now dogs see fewer colors than humans do. Mantis shrimp have something like 16 different types of cells in their in their composite eyes, we can't even comprehend what it would be like to see things like a mantis shrimp. Our reality would be unbelievably different, not to mention like what their consciousness must be like. Right we think we think we are it when it comes to reality, not even close. Now when we get into the realm of beings, appear like beings that we perceive as purely spiritual like gods and goddesses. So one thing I'll tell you about Gods and Goddesses I'll do a whole a For certain gods and goddesses coming up, maybe I'll do it as my next episode. So, you know, assume for a moment that Gods and Goddesses are real individual beings. So let's take the gods Odin, my fav from Norse mythology, although I'm very fond of Freya as well. So let's take let's take Odin for example. And, you know, to the ancient Norse and to modern well to ancient Norse anyway, Odin was a dude who could show up at your house,

but he was also as big as giants and he had different appearances and could shape shift into eagles and you know, all kinds of different beings. Right? And he had there were something like 75, attested to different titles for him. He could be a warrior, he could show up in armor, he could show up as an old man and a gray cap, he could, you know, all of these things. Because, my inner well, not because my understanding but my understanding of how the entity is known as God's work is we experience aspects of them. Right? We experience avatars of these gods. That's a you know that word I believe comes out of Sanskrit because they were talking they actually talk about avatars, right have have their, their gods and goddesses interacting in the world, so they interact so that they can show up and in multiple, like so. If you have 1000 people praying to the same God that God can be present and hear the prayers for all of these different people. Is not just Omni presents, but they show up as different in different aspects, right. So in my shamanic work, we frequently deal with the compassionate aspect. Gods and Goddesses are very complex beings frequently in different cultures, you have mother goddesses, who are also goddesses of destruction, you have Freya, in Norse mythology, who is a goddess associated with beauty, and love and sexuality and sensuality, but also a war goddess. Um, you know, and that might make more sense if you are looking at it through a lens of that culture, but that culture doesn't isn't around anymore. Yeah, people have tried to recreate that you have modern havens, and you have some families who have passed some things down, and Scandinavia and perhaps Iceland and you know, I don't know other places maybe. But again, it's you know, we don't have that lens anymore. And interesting thing is in Iceland, something like 25% of people believe in elves. If you read the stories, if you read the the Norse stories about elves, very, very interesting stuff. You know, again, akin to the fairies in, in you know, get away from our ideas of elves and fairies from you know, more modern story like when you think of fairies you might think of Tinkerbell this little tiny being two inches high with gossamer wings flying around. You know, that is sort of like the Renaissance paintings of angels as these, you know, white dudes with long hair and gowns, you know, whatever, does not match original descriptions of angels from particularly from the Old Testament. So, you know, go back and look, look at this stuff. So I do think that whatever is going on, whether it's my take is that we're probably talking about lots and lots of different phenomena that are occurring in similar ways weird things in the sky, the small beings that jump in and out of existence from an animist perspective everything is spirit. So to say that aliens are spiritual beings are interdimensional beings is sort of like saying, humans are animals. They are but so are lots of other things. Right. You know, so that doesn't really narrow it down. Are these beings um, you know, a race of beings from other planets, you know, that are in our universe. Maybe Maybe, I don't know. But given the challenges of interstellar travel and time and that sort of thing, you know, they've, they have to be one would think not have to, there's nothing have to you know, the ability to travel between stars is complex and, you know, there's there's got to be, if it's a, if it's a strictly mechanical technology thing, then, you know, it is well beyond what we understand today, or even kind of theorize about I guess, is interdimensional is it, I think there becomes a point. So if we go back to early alchemy, for example, and they just did an episode on alchemy, there was no division between the mirror material world and the spiritual world. What alchemists were doing is they were trying to get to the spirit of matter of different things, plants, minerals, metals, they were trying to get to the spirit, the pure spirit of that, and the source of that being the prima materia, the original material behind all things. Right. And I honestly think that things that we think of as spiritual phenomena, like we have this sort of neat separation in our minds between spiritual and physical phenomena. But I think it's way messier than that. I think reality there's a heck of a lot of overlap. There's some fantastic stuff. I have a book on my desk, pardon me, if there's a little bit of noise as I shuffle things around on my desk to try to grab this book. I have not read the entire book yet. This, this book is called Soul matter. And it is written by John Rochelle, Salomon, Sal. Oh, Mo and PhD. Now I know a couple things because her work was, she is a she was a cohort of my shamanic teacher, she studied under the same teacher, my teacher did. And my teacher recommended her work. Now this book, if you can get it, I don't know if it's still in print. I got an original copy of this. That went out. And then the author figured out that there were some mistakes that the editors had made and then recalled all of the books. So if there's a new version out, you know, you may be able to find that, but I've got the first version that came out before they corrected editorial mistakes. This is called Soul matters, modern science confirming ancient wisdom. And this woman who's brilliant did her PhD research on shamanic healing and use technology like quantum EEG machines to measure brainwave patterns and can show can demonstrate we can technologically demonstrate non local effect. This isn't the only work here. And this. This book is basically her thesis. But done as a book form. But yeah, so she's got case studies in here. She's got technological research, the quantum, the overlapping between quantum field. A lot of what goes on today, technologically is anytime people can't understand anytime science can't understand something, they go, Oh, that's quantum quantum effect. Well, that may be I mean, everything physical is quantum is sort of like saying, you know, again, people are animals. Sure, but lots of things are animal, you know, all animals or animals. Or like saying everything, you know, people have a spirit. From an animus perspective. Well, yes, but so do the rocks and the trees and the rivers. Everything has quantum things going on with the electrons in every atom in your body. quantum jump between electron shells, the electrons in your body right now, every single one of them teleports. When an electron moves from one shell to another, it does not cross the space in between. It blinks out of existence and then blinks into existence in the new in the new shell. So, you, every part of you, every physical part of you is teleporting as we speak, just by sitting, sitting still doing nothing. You've experienced teleportation And countless times over your life trillions of trillions of trillions of times. And that's just normal shout out. So there's everything as a quantum effects light. Matter.

Everything I think is made up of, you know, material that we now understand as quantum until some new model of science comes along, right. So we had, you know, sort of originally before we use the word science, we had Newtonian physics. And remember that Isaac Newton beyond, they called his field of study natural philosophy, right, there wasn't something known as physics, there wasn't something known as science, it was called natural philosophy. philosophers and scientists were the same thing. And he was an alchemists. He studied alchemy, he practiced, he had a lab in his home. And he wanted to understand how the world worked. So he came up with the laws of physics that still govern motion and how planets move. And he, you know, discovered the law of gravity. And he invented calculus to describe the motion of planets and things like that, right? Still effective today still works at a larger scale. Then on a smaller scale, you know, Einstein came along and came out with a theory of relativity. And that started to get a little weirder. And we're still proving out parts of relativity, and there are parts of it missing. But that allowed us to do things like split the atom, for better or for worse, and to understand how things worked at a much smaller level. So that was a new paradigm. And that works. It works for what we need to use it for. But beyond that level, what's what's underneath that. So then we've got now we've got quantum physics and when it's interesting, when you see quantum physicists speak, they get to a certain level and then they start talking in what I can only describe as very spiritual terms. Right. Erwin Schrodinger of Schrodinger, his cat fame, said, the number of consciousnesses in the universe is one. Right? This is a guy who, you know, foundational on some of the print principles of modern physics. And was talking about consciousness and how there was only a single Consciousness in the Universe. Isn't that interesting? And you look at guys like Oppenheimer and you look at Einstein, and these guys were not. They didn't say, you know, my physics disproves spiritual reality, or the existence of higher intelligence or consciousness or whatever. Not at all their stuff started to get really, Einstein called some of it spooky action at a distance, right? Quantum entanglement. I can have two particles separated by any distance, two particles created in the same reaction. And if I observe one, it affects the other with no information passing between them. We don't know how that happens yet. We don't but it makes things like we've done. Quantum teleportation we've done I mean, years ago, years ago, we did faster than light communication, using what's called electron tunneling. Right, it transmitted I think it was like one a Beethoven symphonies through a really long led brick, and it traveled at 1.6 times the speed of light. Isn't that physically impossible? Well, according to relativity, right, but we're learning new stuff all the time. Relativity still works. There's still important stuff going on there. But we're going into a new scientific paradigm now. And the big, the hard problem in science. You know, the hardest problem that I know of currently is consciousness, where, where does consciousness come from? And, you know, some materialists would say, well, consciousness is just a byproduct of the brain. That does not explain your subjective experience a, you know, a bunch of ones and zeros passing through. A silicon chip isn't not self aware does not have a subjective experience of something as complex as we can make that computer does not have subjective experience and does not have an experience separate from brain activity which has been observed, right? With people who have died, who've had experiences that they remember similar experiences that they remember. And so, my explanation of this, again, is very similar to Graham Hancock's explanation that the brain is a transceiver of consciousness, but that consciousness itself seems to be non local. Is does that mean it is a quantum thing? Perhaps if we, I mean, we really, you know, by we, I mean, not me, but science, physics really wants a physics explanation of consciousness. It's uncomfortable for them to think that there may be an other than straight up physical, and maybe, maybe we will get to the point with our science sometime in the next billion years, where we can use physics to explain spiritual phenomena. Like consciousness, like life after death, that sort of thing that doesn't take anything away from spiritual effects. It doesn't make it any less special or cool or wonderful. We know we have consciousness that is a beautiful to me, that is the miracle of miracles, the fact that some wavy air coming out of your, you know, your air pods, or headphones or phone or car speakers, or whatever, hit your eardrums, and an electrical signal goes back into your brain and you experience me talking to you. That's consciousness. My speech, your understanding of my words, that is arising in your consciousness, that's not a result of electrical signal, signaling the wire that goes from my microphone, into my mixing box, and eventually into my computer isn't having an experience of me speaking, it's transferring digital information is just ones and zeros. Right. And that's true, you know, it's, it's translated into, you know, over many different times and different things like this. This is being recorded as a bunch of ones and zeros that will be put into mp3 format, which is compressed, also ones and zeros but in different format. And then you'll upload it and download it. And when you download it and play it, you know, that has to be translated into sound waves or into electrical signals that are then translated into sound waves very analog to analog, digital, digital analog. None of those things is having an experience like you're having of me talking to you. Right. So, anyway, I'm going to wrap this for today. Been talking about UFOs, aliens, fairies, Gods and Goddesses consciousness technology, and what we understand about it, and some different ways to look at it. And if I can pass along, one thing, one key, just understand that you're living in a reality tunnel. We all are, we all have tunnel vision. We, we cannot really understand anything outside of that reality tunnel, without shifting the reality tunnel expanding it or tearing it down to some extent, but that just makes it larger we're living in then we live in a different reality tunnel. Understand that our subjective reality is subjective. And the meanings we place on things are subjective. They're not. It's not reality. And we get into trouble when we try to impose our reality on other people.

So put some thought into that. You know, and I will I'll be doing more of these going forward. I also have a YouTube channel where I do live broadcasts on it's called shamans tent you find on my website which is at me In shaman.com, or just go to YouTube and search for search for me, John Moore at shamans tent. And I have a fairly regular live video broadcast I do where people can ask me questions and we talked about topics and it's called the shamanic coffee hour. The topics are not always about traumatism either it's somewhat like this, pick some random topics. But I hope to see you there and we'll talk to you real soon.

Announcer 1:01:00

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshaman.com

Ep62 What is Spiritual Alchemy

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:48

Hello, hello, hello. It has been a minute since I've done one of these. Well, I know that's the expression. My kids use that all the time. It's been well over a year, and I thought I would get back into it with something. Hopefully you find interesting. We're going to talk today about spiritual alchemy. What is it? Why do we care? Why would we be interested in this? How does it relate to traditional laboratory alchemy? I'm talking all about that today. And I'm going to give you a rather simplified model of alchemy, a four phase model of alchemy rather than a seven phase. I will say this, I'm currently teaching a 28 day course. This isn't a sales pitch, you can sign up for it right now on spiritual alchemy, particularly energy body alchemy. And I I'm working on a much longer one I'm working on, I don't know how long it's going to be yet long term spiritual alchemy course, on something called ApoE Theosis, which is raising oneself to the level of the Divine or being raised to a level of divine but in this case, you would be raising yourself. So let's get into it. Let's talk about alchemy and what's going on with that in and you may or may not have heard of spiritual alchemy. But undoubtedly, you are aware of traditional laboratory alchemy, where, you know, people were working in labs, ostensibly to do things like turn, lead into gold. And that was part of that was part of it. And that's what people outside of alchemy focused on. Why because, hey, if I can take this, you know, cheap lead and turn it into this gold, I can get really rich, and there are stories of alchemists actually being able to do this. I don't know the truth of it could be myth could be legend. But we're going to talk a little tiny bit of history, a little bit of mythology, but we're gonna get into the spiritual work of it. And I'm gonna say this, that the original alchemists, there wasn't a division between spirit and material, right. However, they did, you know, processes with materials to get to the spirit of the material. And in many alchemy labs in Europe, and I'm going to talk specifically about Western alchemy, I don't know enough about Eastern alchemy to really speak to it. I know that there are processes called alchemy, say amongst the Daoists, and probably other spiritual, physical systems in Asia, I just don't know enough about it to talk about it. Maybe someday, maybe we'll take courses or something and learn about it or find a teacher. But I'm going to talk about Western alchemy because that's what I know about. And so these guys that were working in these labs, and there are big ones in say, Vienna and Prague that was, you know, the center of alchemy during medieval and Renaissance times. You know, you could get a license to practice alchemy. So, John D, for example, the famous CT magician, an astrologer of Queen Elizabeth, the person whose code name was double oh seven where Ian Fleming got the name for James Bond and who coined the term the British Empire and is highly highly responsible, yet unknown for much of the way the western world is today. For for better or for worse, right. He was definitely an imperialist before him England was just this little, you know, this little island nation with no real aspirations other than to save themselves from the Spanish. And he's like, No, we're gonna go take over the New World, we're gonna go take over India, we're going to take over Africa. And that sparked all of that colonialism. And, you know, again, colonialism, it is what it is, right? Lots of evils came out of that lots of you know, slavery and genocide and all kinds of stuff. But we live in a world that was greatly shaped by this guy who was amongst many things truly a Renaissance man, an alchemist. He was, you know, he had a license, you had to, in most places, you had to have a license to practice alchemy. And it wasn't necessarily considered black magic, than it wasn't something unless you didn't have a license that could get you in trouble with the law, say, or hunger, that sort of thing. And Dee was practicing magic for sure, he came up with the with considered like the Nokian system. These days, although I don't think that's what he called it. But they were working on summoning angels, he really wanted to bring in the apocalypse. Right and, and create a new world order with Queen Elizabeth, the first as the head of the world, basically, that was his plan. And, um, and he was very influential in the court of Queen Elizabeth. And so you know, that gave birth to a lot of things in the English language, and in the English speaking world, and is responsible for a lot of the world speaking English, and a lot of what the, you know, became of the US, even though the Enlightenment era really had a lot to do with that, too. But that's just a little tiny bit of history. So, in these labs, in Europe, you would have, you know, all of the equipment, you would have a furnace for, you know, burning things, and heating things, and barrels of supplies and all kinds of stuff. In some part of this, sometimes in the center of these labs, there would be like a little tent. And that tent was called a tabernacle. And if you've heard that word before, you know that that was the word for the tent, or the Holy of Holies, where the Ark of the Covenant was kept. Right, this was, this was a holy place where the was considered the home of God, basically. And so the alchemist would go into the tabernacle, and pray and meditate and do whatever. Because the idea was that he had to be in the right state of spirit, right, purity of spirit, or his physical experiments would fail. And so, as they were transmuting, things they were, you know, and I'm going to talk about, I'm gonna talk about a simplified model of alchemy in this podcast, because no need to get too complex with this for for now. But they would, you know, they would ferment and burn and distill and purify and elevate, and then, you know, merge opposites. And if you look at alchemical what they called alchemical emblems, or, you know, the drawings by Alchemist and stuff, really obscure mythological, metaphoric information hidden there. And it can take a lot to suss out what they're doing. And in fact, I can, you know, there are alchemical emblems, I look at him like, I don't know what's going on here. But there is a some symbolism to it. And it can be understood by those in the know and part of that was to obscure the knowledge from the uninitiated. And part of that was to convey significant amounts of knowledge. There's a particular alchemical emblem, you know, painting that I'm thinking of, that is rather complex and alchemists would sit in front of it and meditate on it. Now, that sounds very much like a Buddhist or Hindu practice of using you know, looking at a Tonka which is, you know, a painting of Buddha or or Buddha's or gods or what have you, or, you know, looking at a mandala or that sort of thing. So, there is there is an alchemical monde Law you wouldn't look at it necessarily recognize it as a mandala. But they would stare at this, you know full of rich metaphoric symbolism, in order to awaken unconscious parts of themselves and parts of their spirit to communicate with the unconscious aspects of themselves. Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst took a lot from alchemy. Right? He,

you know, wrote a lot about alchemy and how it was this pursuit this integration of the unconscious and conscious particularly integrating the shadow material, which happens in the the, the first phase, kind of the first phase of alchemy. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about the four phase model of alchemy, as opposed to the seven or nine or 12 phase. Traditionally think is seven, but we'll go through this four phase alchemy and each one is color coded with a Latin word, and I'll explain what they mean and kind of what's going on there. Okay. So, the first phase is called the Negredo and that means blackening. This is the blackening phase. And in physical alchemy, this would be you know, you put your material in a flask or whatever, and you burn it down to black and ash. Okay, and then you know, the symbols of the new Greta phase include things like crows or a black son, or, you know, there are lots and lots of metaphoric symbols here. Birds show up a lot in alchemy. Which to me is an interesting thing because birds show up a lot in shamanism as well, with headdresses and, you know, there were Swan, you know, shamanic Swan cults in very, very ancient times, all kinds of stuff like that. But birds show up and alchemy, quite a bit in alchemical symbolism and sort of other, you know, Mythological Beings and, you know, regular creatures and they mean different things. But we'll say so there's the integrado. And in the integrado, we can in spiritual alchemy, we can think of this as passing through a dark night of the soul or the initial phase of initiation, where things get very dark all of a sudden, and you delve into to come out of it, you delve into your shadow. And I've done whole episodes on the shadow and I've done videos on YouTube on the shadow, check out my YouTube channel shamans tent. There's, besides this podcasts, which is on YouTube, they're there. I don't know how many videos couple 100 Maybe, and they do more all the time. So then the great Oh phase we are dealing with shadow material, we're dealing with the dark aspects, we are pulling those up so that we can you know, so that we can work with them. This is stuff that has gone into our unconscious all throughout our life but is hidden away from us. And here we are, we are diving in or passing through a dark night of the soul in which you might feel all is lost and this is very frequent in shamanic initiation. One of my interests in in alchemy and spiritual alchemy is how it relates to shamanic initiation and that sort of thing. So that is the integrado phase. The second phase of spiritual alchemy is known as the albedo phase. The albedo means albedo means whitening. You might know that an egg white is the albumin. Right? So this is, you know, this is the whitening phase. And in the whitening phase, we're dealing with purification. Now that we've burned down the material to ash, we want to sweep away all of the things that are not the prima materia, the material that we want to work with, spiritually, we work on spiritual purity now pause for a second because a lot of what we're taught about spiritual purity are just rules and laws that people came up with that or you know, don't have sex outside of marriage don't eat certain things don't work after certain times of day. So all of these prohibitions, all these dogma, we're not talking about that. And if you do those things in your spiritually, that's totally fine. That's just not what we're talking about. We're talking about peeling away those things that aren't us those things that we've picked up from culture, and that might include rules or dogma or that sort of thing. All right. So that's, you know, that's the that's the kind of thing that we work on in this phase, we work on peeling things away. Take a brief pause, we're back at it. So we're in the albedo phase. And we're doing purification work, prayer, meditation, examination, you lots of, you know, exercises, maybe we're, you know, doing energy body work, maybe we're, I don't know, maybe we're imbibing things don't imbibe things. But we're talking about alchemists here. But for your spiritual alchemy work, not necessarily all that important. Right, and we are in we are trying to purify ourselves to move to the next stage. What's the next stage you ask? The next stage is called see trainee tasks. You might recognize this as you know, having the same route as Citrine, or citrus. This is the yellowing phase. The yellowing phase is about advancement and lighten meant raising ourselves up now that we have purified now that we've burned away the you know, the part we've reduced ourselves to our component parts and cleared away the stuff that isn't us. What's left is us at our purest sense. And now we want to elevate that. We want to raise that stuff up. And this is actually the phase in laboratory alchemy, where we would produce yellow gold. And I'll tell you that it you know, even though you might think so producing yellow gold is not the ultimate feat of laboratory alchemy. We'll talk about that in a moment. So we've burned away we've purified and now we are elevating, were elevating our consciousness to become, you know, enlightened to have spiritual awareness. In spiritual alchemy, this is about becoming more than what we were before. Right, raising ourselves up through the Plains or whatever you want to however you want to do it. All right, sorry. I just took another brief brief pause I last time I did one of these podcasts. I didn't have a dog and I have a dog now and she craves attention. And so anytime I get on a call, or I'm working with a client or whatever, she decides she needs to go out a couple times. So I've let her out. I've let her in. She's in she's playing with a cat. Excuse me. I normally don't pause enormous normally. Normally, normally. Wow. I'm out of practice, folks. What can I say? My tongue stopped working. My mouth stopped working. My voice is a little bit hoarse this morning. If you couldn't tell. I'm stuffing. But I did want to talk to you all. So we're in the Citroen atoss phase which is about enlightenment and in many systems enlightenment is the end goal. Right raising the consciousness. But not so in this system of alchemy. This just means that we are now we're now tapped into divine wisdom. We're now channeling Spirit clearly in shamanism we have become the hollow bone that's the term in shamanism for becoming a clear channel for Spirit at this phase in alchemy Yeah, you can you know turn lead into gold and you know in laboratory alchemy interesting character from alchemy. If you're ever want to find a story, look up Nicholas Flamel. Their stories about him becoming immortal about turning, you know, lead into gold. One thing is for sure he was an alchemist. And he did become incredibly, incredibly wealthy all of a sudden. And when he died, this as the story goes, people dug up his grave and to find it to be empty. That's the story anyway, that he he faked his death that he was actually in Immortal he found the philosopher's stone which the philosopher's stone comes in the last phase of alchemy, which is the rubedo. In this model in the rubedo rubedo means the reddening isn't that interesting? We went from, you know, black to white to gold to red. I'm thinking of the traditional colors of the medicine wheel.

Black, white, red and yellow. Hey, you know, maybe there's a relation there, maybe not. But it is interesting. It's interesting how this set of colors why no blue? Why no green, you know, why not? Turquoise or purple. But this is the rubedo it's the reddening. The reddening is about merging of opposites. What, you know, if I were to slap a word on this phase, it would be non duality becoming completely non dual. Now, there is no difference between spirit and matter, they're interchangeable. There's no difference between you and divinity, you are divinity. Right, this is my, my upcoming long term course, is called APO Theosis. Quest, the quest for raising oneself to a divine level. And it is about recognizing the non not just recognizing but living from that non dual nature. In some Eastern systems that I'm aware of, you know, this is the, what we might call the, the rainbow body which happens in like Tibetan Buddhism, when the physical body transforms into light. You, you know, you, it is the stage of enlightenment, it's after the initial enlightenment, the spiritual, mental enlightenment. You know, the body turns into rainbow light, the physical body, and just, you know, dissipates, disappears for all intents and purposes. So it's interesting, so that, you know, it's interesting when I say, usually, when I say that's interesting, it's because there are parallels, there are true this, that, although they're spoken about in different terms, there they are, you know, they're, they're talking about the same thing, from different cultural perspectives, different cultural viewpoints. And to me, that's one of the things that points out a spiritual truth. Right? So the Golden Rule Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, or, you know, words to that effect. Well, you know, in the Bible, Jesus speaks those words, but those words were also spoken by Buddha 600 years earlier, and, you know, come out in other ways in other spiritual systems from other spiritual leaders. Right, and, you know, in cultural terms, the Norse for example, had rules about hospitality, welcoming, you know, welcoming people into your home who just showed up. Why, because you would need like, if you were wandering around in the icy cold, and you came upon a home, you wouldn't want to be turned away. Right? So that rule, the the idea of that is, in my opinion, a universal truth. It's given different words because words are limited, language is limited. Language is powerful, but it is limited in expressing truth. Right, particularly things like principles and laws, we try to we really try to define these things.

So

anyway, there we go. So that that is the rubedo phase, which is the final phase of alchemy. Now, in my experience, because I've gone through practices in these phases spiritually and gone through longer practice. It says and lighten up practices and stuff. It tends to be cyclical. What it's interesting. So I'm doing, I'm in the middle of teaching this 20 day, you know, four week class in alchemy, and each week is dedicated to a different phase. And so at the end of the Negredo fate, well, in the beginning of the albedo phase, one of my students, you know, said, Well, geez, I still have shadow material coming up. I guess I'm not done with integrato phase. And I said, Yeah, you know, a week of Shadow Work is not going to clear out many lifetimes of shadow material, or even one lifetime of shadow material, you've got work to do. But this is cyclical, you'll go back to it, or it will come up and you'll you know, you'll be doing Negredo while you're in albedo and sutra to us. And then when you're done with the rubedo, you can go back and start over again. And things will become more intense. Because you can handle them, you've gone through a transformation, which will allow you to handle more intense spiritual experiences it initiation people frequently think of, I'm done, I've been initiated. I am, you know, I'm, I'm not finished my work. I tell people, I tell my students to tell my clients, I tell you, folks, I will never be done. I have never, you know, well, I'll take I'll say it this way. There have been times of my life where I'm like, I'm done. Thank goodness, I don't have to go through that, again. What a surprise when I have to go through that all over again. So I don't ever tell myself that I'm done doing my work. And so I think there's this idea that spiritual teachers need to be at a certain plane of being or whatever. And that's okay, right? Like, you want to learn something from somebody who knows, something you don't or has been through experiences, you haven't or can guide you through experiences, you haven't. But this idea that teachers cannot also be human cannot also be going through their own stuff, I think is a dangerous one. It causes us to put teachers up on pedestals they don't belong on. And quite frankly, pedicels I'm not comfortable with I remember teaching a live class years ago, and one of the students said, oh, you know, I'm, you know, I view you like, I used to view the priests in my church, and you know, I should bow down before your wedding or something along those lines. I'm like, no, no, no, no, stop, right? They're not comfortable with that. You're not putting me on a pedestal. I'm here as a guide. That's it. I'm not here to show you that I know more than you or that I'm more powerful than you or I've reached a level I'm not here for that. I am here to show you how much you already know how powerful you already are. I'm here to guide you through experiences. So that you can grow. And that's it. You know, and I know there are the guru worshipers and all that out there. And that's fine. If that's part of your path. It's just it's not mine. It's not me. It's not who I am. And I learned stuff from my students. Because there I cannot know everything that any other person knows. You can't know everything I know. And I can't know everything that you know, I happen to have focused a good portion of my life, on spiritual development and teaching and I can guide people through some pretty powerful experiences. That's what I do. If you're looking for more than that, if you're looking for sunlight to shine out of my butt, that's not going to happen. I'm sorry. You know, and I know there are teachers who do Shakti pot, right where you just sit in their presence and their energy raises your energy and I do try to do something very similar with my, my students and my clients. But I don't want that to be the focus where we just sit there and look at each other. There are times where that is the practice. There are times where that may be the practice. Way. they're few and far between For me, it's not the main part of my practice. The main part of my practice is teaching. Just like this, just like I'm talking to you today. I talk to people, I guide them through experiences, I have them do things that are going to lead them through other worlds, to have experiences to open their awareness. That's it. And there's, that's, you know, my part of the alchemy. Right. So, along with that is I have to do my own work. Continuously, I would not be in integrity if I don't continuously do my own work. Right? If I'm not continuously journeying, meditating, journaling, studying. So if I could boil alchemy, down to a single phrase, it is the art and science of transformation. What are we transforming? Well, in laboratory alchemy, we are transforming material things. And spiritual alchemy, we're transforming ourselves, our spirit and spirit is deep. And eventually, the becomes no difference between the physical and the spiritual. The duality of the physical world and the spiritual world is basically a false one. So it's not something that you know, it's not something that we want to cling to. This isn't to say the physical world isn't real. But it is just really one way of looking at his just really dense spiritual material. I'm gonna grab this book off the shelf behind me. It's a good one, so far, haven't gone through it, because it is a one. It's a book that you're supposed to read over a year. It's called it's by John Michael Greer, who writes a lot about magic and the occult, and that sort of thing. I really like him. I like his writing. I've listened to him on podcasts. And this is called the occult philosophy workbook was a one year course in the secret wisdom, and they're talking a lot about. I mean, I haven't been that far through it. But I'm gonna talk about the very first, the very first lesson, there are a bunch of lessons, I think there are enough like to do one a week for a year or something along those lines. The very first lesson is about there being a visible and an invisible world. Right? We would define that maybe into physical and spiritual, but they are overlapping. And so there are exercises that there's a bunch of number lessons about material versus spiritual things. So we're starting out in in duality a little bit and I understand why. Right? You can't necessarily start out and just say, okay, just, you know, become non dual. Right, it takes a while. It's working up to it. But the affirmation, there's an affirmation, and each at the end of each chapter, and this one is, in the heart of matter is a spark of spirit, in the heart of spirit, is the seed of matter. Isn't that interesting? There is matter in spirit and there is spirit and matter. And ultimately, there's no pulling one from the other. In my view, if spiritual reality didn't exist, material reality wouldn't exist. Right there. They're tied together. This material world has a spiritual underpinning everything you see, I guess that's really an animist view of things. And with that,

with that, my dear friends, I'm going to leave you this is a shorter episode than I have done in the past. I'm going to experiment a little with different lengths of things. And hopefully, you know, we get to tune in some more and reach out to me And check out my website at Main shaman.com meineshaman.com.

Announcer 35:35

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to mainesharmin.com That's maineshaman.com

Ep61 The Alchemy of Emotion: Transforming Fear and Pain Into Courage and Power

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is Chinar and spiritual teacher. And now here's John

John Moore 0:47

Hello, hello, hello.

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time it is, as you are listening to this, it's morning where I am.

Gosh, it's only quarter of seven, I got up early this morning, I'm having my coffee while I talk to you, which is a pretty normal thing. Today, we're talking about the alchemy of emotion. Transforming fear and pain into power. That's the title. So we're going to get into emotion, and we're going to get into transforming, quote, unquote, negative emotions. How do we do that? Why do we do that? Why would we want to do that? Well, you know, let me begin by saying this, no podcast on this planet, including this one can offer you professional advice. And if you are experiencing, you know, deep depression, or any sort of emotional dysregulation, that might be an indicator of something serious, something medical, something psychological, please seek out professional help. Well, the techniques, you know, I go through here, you know, might be helpful, you want to address the things that are, you know, there may be some underlying organic causes or something, but I'm going to talk about fear and painful emotions, things that we consider negative emotions. And I'm going to probably quote some works by other spiritual teachers here because I've learned a lot about emotion from other folks. And I'll do my best to reference who they are, as I throw their work out there for you to, to ponder to use. And I'll try to give some practical advice along the way. So one of the useful ways of looking at emotions for me, is looking at them kind of on a scale of low to high energy or low to high vibration, not to get to New Agey, but we have, you know, we have different emotions. And there's a scale that is part of the Sedona Method, which was founded by Lester Levinson, one of my favorite spiritual teachers now taught by Hale Dwoskin, his student and there's a book and there are courses and all kinds of stuff. But he had this scale of emotion that I find is fairly useful, it's because it's very simple. And it's, they call it ag flap. It's a funny word. And that Stan, I'm gonna try to remember exactly what each letter each letter stands for an emotion and sort of going up the scale from lowest energy to highest energy, emotion and once you get past the final P in ag flap, then you start moving into I guess more positive emotions, we might consider more levels of spiritual awakening and enlightenment, etc. So ag flap the A at the bottom stands for apathy. This is I've just given up I feel nothing. Obviously the very lowest for form of emotion one can have. And then there's grief. Right? And I'm not talking about the grieving process, which is absolutely normal when there's a loss, but the emotion of grief, this emotion that is dragging you down this feeling of loss that's AG, F. Fear. I'm going to talk a lot about fear today. It's an important one to consider. L is lust. So above fear is the energy of lust. Right? It's the feeling of longing of wanting something so badly. It not just, I'm not just talking sexual lust here

a lust anger, right, very high emotion. Lots of energy there can be very destructive. And P is actually pride. They'll say pride is a hide. You know, in this is not, you know, I'm proud of my kids, or, you know, this is sort of false pride is very high energy, but it's still a trap. And so the reason why these are lower on the scale is that they affect your ability to choose your own. Choose your own adventure. And if you remember the Choose Your Own Adventure books. I used to love these when I was a kid you'd read, you know, story, maybe it was like a Dungeons and Dragons kind of thing. Where you're, you know, you're a knight and you're in this castle and says, if you go into the drawing room, turn to page 103. If you choose to go down the staircase, turn to page 204. And then you would turn to wherever you wanted to, and read the next passage and then move along. So your life is a little bit like that, right? You get to choose your own adventure, as long as your life is not being run by out of control, emotion. So, you know, extreme examples of that would be like anxiety. You know, if I have social anxiety, for example, it might prevent me from going out. If you have a disorder and anxiety disorder, you may need medication, you may need therapy, but you know, the feeling of anxiety around certain things can prevent you from doing them. Even if logically, it's the best choice for you. Even if there is a reward that's involved with it. Sometimes the reward is lusty, and so that might help you overcome. You know, overcome the fear, because lust is a higher vibration, emotion. So above the emotion of pride, there are what they call three more courageousness. Acceptance, and peace. This moving into the positive side of the emotions. Now courageousness is not false bravado, has nothing to do with Macho or you know, whatever. It's the idea that I am facing, whatever is in this moment without fear. And I'm going to talk a lot about that in a moment. Acceptance. Whatever is happening in this moment, is perfect. That's acceptance, and acceptance. Acceptance really is love. We talked about love as an emotion, and you'll notice that love's not on the scale. love really is a state of being in total acceptance of what is at a deep spiritual level, and I will talk a lot about love today. And finally, is peace. This is perfect imperturbability perfect peace is when nothing can disturb you It your house may be on fire. And you calmly get up and walk out the door. Right? You are, you're at peace. Now, none of these things means, you know, acceptance piece. courageousness means you do nothing doesn't mean that it, you know, that's apathy, that's at the very bottom of the scale, I just sit there on the couch, my house is burning down. And I just don't feel like doing anything about it. That's apathy. That's what deep depression is. Like, I can tell you firsthand, if you don't if you haven't listened to me before I came into spirituality. Originally, I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder. And as it turns out, it was actually PTSD. That was masquerading as depression. And there were times in my life where I gave up. I just laid there. I couldn't get myself off the couch. I didn't eat I lost about 60 pounds, I was very sick. That's apathy.

Apathy can be very, it can feel very sad. You'll notice you know, on this on this set of emotions, we don't have happy or sad. Yeah, those are those are very broad terms. So sadness could be apathy, or could be grief. Right. And sometimes anger covers sadness. Sometimes we feel sad, and we get angry about it. And sometimes anger covers grief. So there's a lot going on there are emotions are complex things. They are psycho, spiritual, physiological, energetic, they affect us on all levels. They're the base of our being they exist before thought. When you make decisions about things, I want to buy this car, I want to date this person. What they have found when in doing brain research is that the decision starts in the older part of the brain that the emotional centers of the brain and then moves forward into the prefrontal cortex, which is the logic center of the brain. And good salespeople really, really good top notch salespeople know that people make buying decisions based on emotion and then they justify them with logic. When I went to buy my car last time, I bought a car a couple of years ago I knew what color I wanted now that you know there was no logic involved you know, I had done you know, I've done research I kind of knew what kind of car I wanted but I wanted a car that I felt safe in in the snow and had this and that and it was a lot of back and forth between logic and emotion but the color of the car was important to me why would it matter if the cars pink or orange or gray or whatever? Why do we even have different color cars? If people are only buying cars based on logic it's because they learned and that's a huge purchase and the same is true for houses you know I remember when I moved back to Maine in the house like fell in love literally fell in love with the house we bought from the curb wow that's beautiful and then walked inside and there was a beautiful kitchen and then you know oh yeah this is our house I was sold in about five seconds I mean we toured the rest of the house but um you know we knew the house meta you know met our expectations but we make our decisions based on emotion. Primarily if we are at p See if our base level of motion is courageousness. Acceptance, or peace, we have the ability to make better decisions. Making decisions based on lust. And I think we know, we've all seen people make poor decisions based on lust. And gosh, I have made poor decisions based on lust. You know, I've not dated, always dated the right people know, I'm really attracted to that person. And oh, they're willing to sleep with me. Oh, all right, well, we're dating now. Oh, but they, you know, they took a knife to my dining room table and threw garbage around in my yard and stolen broke a bunch of my stuff. That was not a very wise choice.

So it's about becoming sovereign. And by sovereign, I don't mean, you know, in a political, I'm not talking about politics at all. I avoid that most of the time on these shows are enough political podcasts and politics, you know, are pretty boring to me most of the time. There's a lot of drama, there's a lot of false drama stirred up. And if you're interested in politics, that's fine. I'm not judging anybody who is I'm not judging your interests or anything. But you know, I'm doing my best. Doing my best to rise above the drama. I've I used to watch the news pretty frequently. And I will tie this into the alchemy of emotion as well. I used to watch the news pretty frequently, like, twice a day, you know, in the morning and in at night. And I found it was getting me riled up. It was getting me angry. You know, and I think they, they being you know, I don't think there's a global media conspiracy. That isn't apparent, right, like people who are conspiracy theorists are like, oh, you know, there's one group of people that controls all of the media. No, there are a few, you know, there are a few media outlets that own pretty much everything. That is true there is there are monopolies out there. There's no one person deciding what's going on the news. However, all of the media outlets that rely on ratings, to sell advertising and make money have figured out what gets eyeballs and what gets eyeballs is drama, anger, I can't stop watching this. I can't, you know, I'm riled up, tell me more, feed that emotional beast. And so I'm really careful about the media I consume. And I generally, unless there's, you know, something, some thing going on that I need to be aware of, I generally avoid, avoid the news. You know. And one of the things I, you know, I recommend, I've known people who, you know, during an election cycle or whatever, get riled up and you see, we've seen this, we see people get riled up to the point of violence. Are you being manipulated? Yes, you are, you are 100% being manipulated, you're being manipulated by the media, who wants money for your viewership, you're being manipulated by politicians who are shaping messages to make you angry at the other side? Because that's easy. That's easy.

Right, it's the easiest thing to do to make somebody angry to make somebody feel threatened. So remember, I said that anger sometimes covers fear. And if you watch political messages, particularly coming Well, I'm not going to choose sides here. But if you watch political messages, very often these days the message will be they whoever they are, are coming for your children. They are, you know, trying to to manipulate your children indoctrinate your children do something harmful to your children. Now there are things that are actually harmful to children going on in the world?

But that's not you know, that's not manufactured. It's not going to get people riled up, we, you know, we used to expend a lot of media time and effort on feeding starving children, I remember the whole, you know, the feminine Ethiopia. You know, and they had, you know, the concerts and everything. I haven't seen much of that recently. Because what they found they, you know, again, I'm talking like a conspiracy theorists, what people have found is that they can stir it up, when it's more your survival mechanism, your fear kicks in more when they can demonstrate a threat to your children. As a parent, I understand that. Nothing more precious. So the problem with these lower level emotions is that they drag us down into ego. The ego is a, I did a whole episode on ego. But they're the ego is a defense mechanism for protecting the body and mind. And it makes us view ourselves as separate beings, not inter, not the interconnected spirits that we are made up of pure consciousness. But it makes us identify with our body and our role, and our name and our demographic and our psychographic and, you know, our nationality and our ethnicity and all of those things that if we took, if you were, you know, talking about inquiry and inquiry, spiritual inquiry, you know, Ramana, Maharshi was really good at this, the Indian saint and his whole practice was, what am I trying to get to the bottom of that? If I ask you ask you, who are you, you might say, Oh, I'm so and so. Let's say, Okay, well, that's your name, but who are you? Okay, well, I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a dad. Okay. But if I, if you take away being a dad, do you still exist? Well, yeah. Okay. So I'm a 35 year old, I'm not 35. So but I'm a 35 year old man. Okay. If we take away your age, you know, 35 years old, like if we, you know, next year you turn 36. Or, you know, last year you were 34. And we take away the aspects that you identify with as being a man, whatever that means to you. Do you still exist? And the answer that is yes. Okay, well, I'm I'm a person. And this is our inquiry works. So you're a person, can you be 100% sure of that? Well, the answer to that is no, we can't be 100% sure of anything. I feel like I'm a person I have the perception that of a person people treat me like I'm a person. But maybe I'm, you know, maybe I'm in the matrix, maybe I'm a brain in a jar somewhere. Maybe I'm a computer program. So what am I? And you keep going like that? And there really is no final answer. You're just peeling back layers of your ego. The ego is the stories that we tell about who we are. And so these lower level emotions, the Ag flap stuff, even the highest of those pride pulls us into ego. How can you have pride if you aren't an individual that is separate from the rest of the universe? I'm special. I'm, you know, I'm more special than you are. That's pride.

So these these lower level emotions pull us down into ego. And that's why it is in our best interests to work with them. to transmute them to alchemize alchemy, you know, you can think of in the simplest terms as transmutation, taking one thing and transforming it into another. There is physical alchemy in which they were trying to convert base metals into gold, right, take one thing and convert it into another. And there is spiritual alchemy and these things when alchemy was a going practice, there's still alchemists out there, there's still practical Alchemist out there. These things were inseparable. Why? Because the alchemist did not view the physical universe as separate from the spiritual universe. physical matter was a projection of spirit. No and animism. So my background is in shamanism, and shamanism is animistic. We view everything you know, animism is everything has a spirit, even things that we consider, you know, not, you know, not conscious or not sentient, although the list of things that are not sentient is shrinking all the time. For example, there are trees that weave their roots together in a forest. And if one tree is lacking water, or nutrients, the other trees will send it to them. To me, that's a form of sentience, it's communication. And we've proven a level of sentience in plants over and over again. But in animism, things like rocks and mountains and rivers have a spirit or our spirit. In my viewpoint, everything is a spirit, some things have a physical component, which is projected into awareness. So as I pick up my cup of coffee, I identify that as a spirit. As I take a sip, it's a very delightful spirit. I am becoming one with the spirit of the coffee at least until I go to the bathroom. Right? But spirit is everything projected outwards. And so they were transmuting what were they transmuting, they were transmuting base emotions into higher level emotions to spiritual, higher and higher spiritual levels. I don't love the use of levels for things, but sometimes there, there is not a better way. Or I don't know of a better way of describing things higher or lower or you know, whatever. Using scales, hierarchies all hierarchies are invented by people. There aren't really natural hierarchies, you know, that say, you know, a tree is more conscious than a rock or, you know, whatever. Excuse me. And that's artificial, it's constructed. It helps us organize things, when we are working mentally, but it takes us away from the truth of things that takes us away from observing things just as they are. So the alchemist, if you were to go into an you know, let's say you're in Prague in the 14th century, up until a certain point, and you were in there were a lot of alchemists working in Prague back then. And you were to go into an alchemists laboratory. You would find, you know, shelves, full of glassware, different substances, you know, you would find a furnace that was used to heat things up, you would find all kinds of tools and stuff, but somewhere in the alchemists lab laboratory, you would find a tented off area that tented off area was meant for the alchemist before he was going to do his physical work to enter in and do spiritual practice. In alchemy, if you were just working physically, they would say that your experiments would fail. Right? That you had to have the right spirit going in. And by the way, the reason we call alcoholic drinks spirits is because distillation. Again distillation was a process invented by Alchemist alcohol is comes from the word alchemy. The word alchemy comes from the Arabic word Al cam, which means from Egypt. Kim or Kemet is the original name of Egypt so, you know, we think alchemy may have originated in Egypt. But that's, you know, that's the name. So these alchemists would go into this tented off area, do their spiritual work, do whatever it was the prayers, the meditations get into the right state, they would have to transmute their emotions, whatever they were feeling at the time if they were feeling sad if they were feeling even if they were feeling happy, they would have to go into the correct spiritual and when I say spiritual, I mean psycho spiritual state. So that includes emotions, what you're thinking all of these things. So I'm not an expert in spiritual alchemy, but you know, I can and will give perhaps some practical methods for working with working with emotion and alkalizing our emotion

there, they're, you know, there's a book if you're interested in shaman, even if you're not interested in shamanism. There's a book I'm gonna look it up as I'm talking to you because I don't want to give the wrong title, but it's by Sandra Ingerman who is my teacher's teacher, and somebody who I have great respect for, and has written a number of

yeah, she's written a number of books, a number of really good books. One book that she has is called how to heal toxic thoughts. And I don't believe you need to practice shamanism to get anything out of this book. Sandra Ingerman. Formerly was a psychotherapist. She is probably the best known arguably, at least in the US, the best known shamanic teacher out there, she's a Teacher of teachers and how to heal toxic thoughts is a great book. Really small book. But she talks about one of the things is like not set not because our thoughts transmit. Right, the the body mind is a ginormous electrical system. And there's a really interesting, interesting factoid that's also important is that our heart generates a electrical field that is, I believe, hundreds of times stronger than the brain. And can be in fact, with specialized equipment detected through inside buildings, you can, you know, detect if there's a living person inside a building. And I think they're experimenting with that for like finding people who are in natural disasters like building collapses and you know, they find people who are alive and rescue them. But also applications obviously for the military and law enforcement stuff like that, but, um, our heart gives off an electrical signal electromagnetic signal that can be detected by equipment. Obviously, you know, like You know, they put leads on your chest, if you're getting an EKG you know, they're they're detecting electrical signals in your body to determine what your heart is doing. And an EEG detects the electrical signals in your, on your scalp and your head that are coming from your brain to try to determine what your brain is doing. With a heart generates this, you know, resonance. And if your, your your heart rate will actually start to synchronize when you're with when you're in the same vicinity with people. And for me, this is part because your your, your body is picking up this electrical signal and your heart will start to synchronize. This is why you know somebody panics in a crowd, and then all of a sudden the crowd starts to panic, their hearts are racing, right, we determine that as fear, or anger or whatever it is, and the hearts hearts start to race. So remaining a calm presence with someone holding a calm presence with somebody is, you know, is important is healing, it calms them down.

And this is something you know, as, as a practitioner who sees clients, I see them over zoom. So you know, they're all over the world. Nobody has yet offered to fly me out for a session to Europe or Australia or wherever, I'd be happy to go. But usually that's not feasible for people. So regardless of resume, even though I'm not in physical proximity to them, I feel like holding calm space for them is really important. And it does, it becomes really infectious. When somebody has a calm presence. We pick up on social cues, we have things called mirror neurons, right? Where I can look at the expression on somebody's face, and understand what they're feeling. Because part of me replicates that.

So if you've ever, you know, one of the things that, you know, has been driven home for me as somebody who has ADHD diagnosed with ADHD is that I really have to focus when I'm having a conversation with somebody, I really have to focus on them which I which I do and I've trained myself to do. But when you're easily distracted and your mind is wandering, when some somebody's talking to you, they can tell. I can tell when somebody's wandering or not paying attention to me or just giving me the sort of nodding A ha ha ha uh huh. But not really listening. They're thinking about their next meal or whatever. So let's get into transmuting emotions, what can we do about it and why? Right? And I talked about how are these lower level of emotions can pull us down into survival mode into ego. It can prevent us from thinking clearly, it can prevent us from accessing more of our spiritual selves it can prevent it can keep us off our path, our true will our dharma. Those things are synonyms to me. Right. We're one of the reasons you have incarnated as a person I assume your person, if you're listening to this, if you're not welcome still, you know, if you're playing my podcast for your dog, you know, good boy. But one of the reasons you have incarnated is as a person is to is just to have you know, certain experiences but also to identify your path whatever that is, your true will and live that out. This is what is meant by do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law, which is you know the book of the law by Aleister Crowley, very infamous guy, not very nice guy. Lots of stories about him larger than life very larger than life character from the early 20th century, but really really changed and influenced a lot of things in the West, including, you know, the adoption of Buddhism by many people in the West and the way people do ceremonial magic and founded a number of secret orders and all kinds of stuff. Anyway, your job is to follow your true will your path. That's it, that's the law. Meaning that is the thing. And you can't do that if you're constantly in survival mode. Right? If you're constantly down in your ego, if you're constantly in grief, or if you're in apathy, for sure, or even lust where you're being lust, lust, people are pretty easy to control. This is why you'll see, you know, I still not as much these days, I think the filters are getting better. I get a lot of spam over social media and stuff. And it would always look like you know, there'd be a picture of a woman who looks like a model, right? Very beautiful photograph of a woman, just contacting me out of the blue. You know, and that was meant to stir up, oh, you know, some some lust there. I'm going to I'm going to shut off the thinking part of my brain. And I'm gonna work with the lusty you know, the limbic system. And, you know, fortunately, I've never been taken in by one of these things. You know, knock on wood, I'm a human being. But they haven't, they haven't been, I guess, tricky enough or sophisticated enough. And maybe they've stopped because maybe nobody was fooled by it, I don't know. But, you know, catfishing was a problem for a long time, people would be catfished, and all kinds of stuff. So we want to, we want to transcend these things, we want to have choices about what we do. We want to be sovereign beings. Even though underneath it all. We are one we're all part of the same being our divinity is connected in a way that's really hard to describe and understand, but we are projections of pure divinity. But there are layers to us. You know, we have have a physical body, we have thoughts and emotions. Let's talk a little bit about how to alchemize, transmute these emotions. So I'll give you a couple of ways to do that. One way that I find that works really well with emotions, like fear, you know, things that cause anxiety, or even even depression, sadness, grief, apathy. And this, you know, if you can practice this on the regular, it will help you establish a state of peace, a state of acceptance. Very much, much higher level states, there's more beyond that. But if you get there, you're doing really, really well. And you want to have a state of well being a state of peace courageousness acceptance and peace. Or I should say, you know, this, there's this sort of unified bliss and peace. Instead of very high level, we don't even have a word for it. There's this super positive emotion that's above all of that, that. I don't I'm not aware of a word in English for it, which tells you how frequently people are in that state. You know, one of one of the ways linguists can tell

how important things are in different cultures is how many words they have to describe those things. Right. So, one of the ways they have been able to learn things about the proto indo European culture is, you know, there are a lot of words for things involving horses.

Right, including, you know, racing, including, you know, horse racing and equipment for riding horses and that sort of thing. So you know, that we know that that was an important part of their culture.

In English, we have one word for love.

But in Persian, there's something like 85 words for love, and a bunch in Sanskrit and a bunch and in other languages, but we have love and English and I can, I've talked about this before, I can love my children, I can love my girlfriend, and I can love a cheeseburger. And those are all different things. But there is this true spiritual love that's above all of that. But we have one word, which tells you how important love actually is. In the English speaking world. We do have things like adoration, infatuation, you know, these are things with sort of romantic relationship type love. But they're not, you know, again, we don't get very complex with that. So there is this state of emotion that is like pure love that is kind of a combination of peace and bliss that's above all of that stuff. And we don't have a word for it in English that I'm aware of. Somebody knows of one, please get in touch. But one practice that works, I think really, really well that I'll give to you that I've given to lots of my students. And you know, the more you practice it, the easier it gets. It's, it is a learning process, you don't, you know, you don't become an alchemical master, from not practicing. So, this is an exercise in mindfulness.

And mindfulness to simplify mindfulness. So you might be aware of mindful meditation and mindfulness practices through all kinds of mindfulness practices. But to simplify mindfulness to its most basic term, it is present moment awareness, which means I direct my attention to exactly what I am aware of right now. As opposed to projecting my mind into the future and imagining future possibilities, or projecting my mind into the past and remembering things. I spend time just aware of what is in my awareness right now. As I sit here, I am aware of the chair under my buttocks, I am aware of the microphone in front of me because I can sense these things. What is in my sensory experience right now. You can do this, you can do this many times a day throughout the day, take a break. What am I sensing? Right now. And this might include some emotional material coming up, and that's fine, allow it don't resist anything. So this is where Acceptance comes in. You can ask yourself this question while you're in present moment awareness. Can I in this moment, allow everything to be just as it is? Now again, whatever you we are only aware of what is in our experience right now. You might think can I allow everything to be just as it is? And then start projecting your mind out there and go Well, there are kids starving on the other side of the planet there are people committing violent atrocities blah, blah, blah. Is that in your sensory experience right now? Right at this moment? No, you have to project out to be aware of those things. present moment awareness. Bring your mind into the now what is here in your sensory experience. Now I see. I see the herbs on my the deck outside of my back door. Beyond that. I see the trees, the green grass. I see farm I see you know sky. Can I sit here and just allow all of those things to be just as they are? Of course I can. And I don't have a choice anyway they are as they are. So this is where I give up my resistance. It's incredibly peaceful. Just to sit and allow everything to be as it is, in this moment. So this is one way you can practice this throughout the day, many, many times a day whenever you get a chance. Now I know there are times where it's important to think about the future. Or to remember something from the past. Where did I leave my keys? Right? Where did I leave my glasses? The two things I lose the most? I know, it's important to think about that those things. What am I going to make for dinner tonight? And do I have the groceries to make that, you know, project into the future a little bit. But I don't have to ruminate on that stuff. 24/7. And where it becomes a problem, you know, that alone is a problem. But where it becomes a real problem is when I start thinking about, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna die someday and I'm afraid of death, then I can all of a sudden generate this anxiety, what if? What if? What if? What if? Well, what if? What if instead of worrying about that you bring your mind into the present moment and allow things to be just as they are? What I'm seeing right now, can I allow it to be just for now, just for now. Now, I see there's, you know, there's a bunch, there's some clutter on my dining room table. And I don't want to let that be. But for now I can, it's okay. Just for now, I can let that be as it is. And that will help you move into a state of acceptance and peace. Another so that is you know, sort of mindful, a mindfulness exercise to help you move, help you transmute whatever you're feeling into more of a sense of acceptance and peace. Let's go beyond that. Let's go a little bit beyond that. So this is something that comes from Lester Levinson, again, who created the Sedona Method, he, you know, when he he back in, like the 50s, or something, the 1950s, he had a I think like a heart attack, and went to the hospital. And because of medical technology being what it was, they said, There's nothing we can do from for you, you're gonna die any minute, we're gonna send you home, and don't do anything, don't walk up a flight of stairs that could kill you in an instant your heart is in such bad shape. You know, just go home and enjoy the rest of the time you have left. And that's not going to be long. And Lester went home, and he was an engineer. And so he you know, put his thinking cap on, although he was he was angry. You know, he's How dare they send me home to die? How dare they not take care of me. And the story is this, as I've heard it, that it dawned on him well, you know, these doctors, they're not killing me there. And they are doing their best and they want to do their best to make me safe and healthy. They just don't have the ability. They're just doing what they can. Instead, so can I take these angry feelings I have for them and cheat and convert them to loving feelings. And lo and behold, he could and then he started doing that with everybody in his life and everything in his life. And he would just ask us ask the question. You know, think of think of somebody in your life and whatever feelings that brings up. Can I let that go and replace it with loving feelings and just do that again and again and again until when you bring that person up? The feeling is loving towards them. And by doing that practice, he healed himself he was about to die. He lived something like another 40 years he lived into his 80s he you know and became enlightened from just doing that from just moving into total love. Just a state of total acceptance. Now the resistance to That's because I can feel some resistance to being loving towards everyone to generating loving feelings is, well so and so really hurt me. Sure, there are people in your life who hurt you. And as long as you hold on to hurt and angry feelings, you are hurting yourself. This is where forgiveness comes in. Forgiveness is not about letting the other person off the hook. If somebody was abusive towards you, you can have loving feelings towards them and not let them back in your life. Because you have discernment, you can think you don't have to hold on to the destructive, angry emotion. You can take power, how powerful it is a you know a teacher I really like I haven't taken any courses. But I follow her on social media as Mel Robbins. And she said you want to know a real badass move. forgive somebody who hasn't even apologized to you. Forgiveness is not about letting them off the hook.

Forgiveness is about letting go of the emotional charge you have about whatever happened. Is that always easy? No, it's not always easy. Is it worthwhile work? Absolutely. 100% it is worthwhile. I am here to tell you from my own experience, it has been so healing for me it has been so worthwhile. There are people who I would never allow back in my life, because they were dangerous, destructive and violent. But I can hold them in love. I can hold them in thought and have only loving feelings for them. That's badass. That spiritual warrior ship my friends. Not this I'm angry. I'm going to go to battle with this person. I did. I've done a couple of YouTube videos on curses and cursing and how I think I think cursing generally is a bad thing. Not swearing, cursing, I think swearing is fine. But you know the the act of painful spiritual attack even sending, you know, bad thought forms to people I don't think is a good thing. Why because you are not holding people in love, you're, you're holding that anger for a person and trying to send it off. There's karma involved with that. There's all kinds of stuff now. There's a whole weird, ethical gray area with using magic for defense and that sort of thing. That I won't get into in this episode, but I might in the future. But you know, a course that I've taught in a book that I'm working on is called shamanic self defense and it talks a lot about you know, setting up spiritual defenses, but it does not teach. One of the things that make very clear is I don't teach you to attack back once you get into a war with somebody, you know, both people essentially are losers we think about wars as having winners or losers. But if you think about real wars as they happen in you know the world you know, if you think about you know big wars like World War Two and stuff, yeah, you know, the Allies. One, they got rid of Hitler, Hitler was evil, he was responsible for the Holocaust. But think of how many people who and the Holocaust was evil. I'm not saying stopping that was the wrong thing to do. I think sometimes it's the only choice. It's it's not a not a great choice. But sometimes you're forced into things and I you know, I teach self defense so, but physical defense is a last resort. But think of how many people died on both sides and think of how many families lost brothers and sons on both sides and think about how many civilians were killed and how much artwork was lost and how many buildings were destroyed, and how much money that could have gone into infrastructure went into warfare

to satisfy the war machine You know, I think it's, you know, it's it's an unfortunate it's an unfortunate thing and you don't want to get into wars with people. Somebody mate might prevail, but both people are going to lose things. That's my take on it. Anyway, I'm going to wrap up. I hope this has been somewhat enlightening. This, you know, talking about the alchemy of emotion and thinking about transmuting transmuting your emotions and give Sandra Zingerman's book, how to heal toxic thoughts. A Gander, if you're interested. I don't think it's very expensive. It's a very small book. Very useful. You don't have to practice shamanism to get things from it. It's not something that involves journey. In my in my memory it was I read it years ago, I should get back out and read it again, because it's useful information. If you're interested in the teachings of Lester Levinson, you can look up the Sedona Method. There's a book, there's movies, there's courses, I've read the book multiple times, we've done the done courses, highly recommended, highly, highly recommended. And, you know, if you're really interested in spiritual alchemy, there are lots of resources for that out there as well. We live in a very interesting age when we can access you know, before you would have to apprentice you would have to first of all, find an alchemist which, you know, back in the day, you normally people would have to hide that practice, or you would have to be a light there were licensed alchemists in some places. And you would have to find somebody who would take you as an apprentice and you'd have to give up your life to study with them. And now we have all kinds of information available just at our fingertips. So give it a listen. I love you all. I will talk to you very, very soon.

Announcer 1:02:37

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to mainshaman.com That's maineshaman.com

EP60 The Ego's Illusion: Unraveling the True Essence of Self in Spiritual Development

Announcer 0:28

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:51

Hello, hello, hello.

Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, whatever

As I record this, it is early on a spring morning in Maine, which means we got fresh snow last night. Not too much of it. But it is very pretty.

this psychological, psychospiritual idea of the ego came from psychoanalysis it came from Freud, right, he had the ID of the ego and the super ego and this, you know, all of these things and how we deal with the world and how we deal with ourselves and our drives and all this stuff. But then of these three components.

But when, when I'm talking about ego from a spiritual perspective, what I'm talking about is basically, our ideas about who we are. It's a little bit more than identity, but identity is a big part of it. When you say AI, what are the stories you tell yourself? About I about that person, I or me? What are the stories? What are the definitions? What are the names? So, most people who know me call me John. And that's a label that my parents gave me when I was born. My daughters call me dad, and my dad or am I John? Well, those are both labels. I might call myself by those names, or answer to those names, and I don't have a nickname, but if I had a nickname that might be another thing I answer to, those are just labels. But in English, very often we say, I am John. Not I am called or My name is. So there's this identification with this attachment to our labels. And you might have that if you have a job or you're called by a title. Right? Maybe you're called doctor or attorney, so and so. Right? Those are labels, they're not who you are. At your spiritual core. What are some other things we identify with? And I'm gonna break down identification in a minute. But what are some things we say when we say I would we think about? Do you think about your body most people do. Most people are very heavily invested in the body is who I am. Right? When somebody dies, when a mind body dies, we say we buried your cousin, down in the old cemetery. We don't say we buried your cousin's body, buried the body that was in use by your cousin. At least we you know, in English, I don't know what other how other languages structure this but say I buried your cousin or your aunt is buried here or that sort of thing.

Not the remains not the body where we really, really identify the body with the person. How do we recognize other people by the shape of their face, the shape and size of their body, their gait, their mannerisms, their voice? I remember I had a friend with just not that unusual, but just a very distinct walk. Right, just the way he held himself. And I was in downtown Boston. And look down this long, long street over actually into South Boston. And which is another city actually, and I don't know about a quarter of a mile away. I see this person walking. And I'm like, I think that's Jimmy. And I stopped and I waved and he waved so couldn't see his face. walk down the street. And sure enough, it was Jimmy. So you know, we recognize people by how they walk, how they stand their physical appearance, their name, somebody says, Oh, you know, Bill, that guy work with having a sip of coffee. But the body isn't who we are. How do I know this? How do I know the body is not who I am? Well, for one thing, this body changes constantly. Right? new cells are added old cells die off. The chemical changes in my body. The changes in my brainwave pattern happen all day long, we have cycles. This is completely changing. Is it? Has it been cohesive so far? Has this body stuck together for my lifetime? Sure. But it's constantly changing, but the sense of I when I say I as an I exist, I am aware I perceive my perceptions change the thing in the things in awareness. Change. awareness does not change. The capacity of awareness does not change. It's the same thing no matter what appear. It's like a stage. It's like an empty stage. Awareness. And awareness is what we are at our core. pure, unadulterated awareness. That doesn't mean we don't have a body we have a body. It's important to take care of your body. It's important to take care of your mind you're using it for now. You got stuff to do. Awareness doesn't do anything. but that's who you are. So by extension, you don't do anything either. Sure feels like we do stuff, though, doesn't it? And that's part of the illusion of the ego. So the ego is this collection of ideas about who we are. That is an illusion. And it is a survival mechanism. It keeps this body and mind alive by making it think this body and mind is important. And the thoughts that this body and mind are having, are actually it's sometimes it feels like we are our thoughts, right? You have an, if you have an inner dialogue, it might sound like it's you talking to yourself in there. It could just be noise. Could be your holy guardian angel. It could be you know, who knows? Right? All kinds of stuff. But it feels like it's us, there's a part of our brain called the default mode network. That gets really busy in times of things like boredom, rumination, daydreaming. And part of it. Part of its function is to constantly, constantly try to determine who we are. It's scanning, things like the environment and social cues and all kinds of stuff for us to determine who we are. So those thoughts that come up those thoughts that arise in awareness, very often feel like they are us, or that least they're coming from us. What if? What if they didn't? What if they just arose?

What if thoughts just arose? You know?

And what if we are just the awareness, the space in which the thoughts arise, the perceptions arise? Even our perceptions of who we are? What if that were the truth of the matter? So I said before the egos function is to keep this body and mind alive, we have all kinds of survival mechanisms, tons of them. We're not born with too many. This body was not born with too many survival mechanisms, it could cry if it was hungry, and it had a fear of falling, and a couple of instincts, but not much more than that. But very early on, in the life of a child. Least a human child. Almost immediately, we start calling children by name. Right? We start saying, Oh, look at little, Bobby isn't little Bobby cute. And if something happens, you know, baby happens to smile or respond to their name. The adults in the room get really excited. Like he knows his name. He knows these little Bobby, right? Or they talked a little Bobby Hailo Bobby Do you want to eat? Right? And we're programmed to want to eat so that we grow and survive. So we very quickly associate the label with who we are with by being rewarded. Right? It's conditioning. Pavlov stuff. So then, you know, our parents, at least in my generation, they put you in clothes that were color coded for the genitals you were born with. If you were a boy, you're a blue. If you're a girl, you wore pink. I realized things are changing. But that was that was the way and then you're given all kinds of rules. You're given rules by your parents. Some of them communicated openly and some of them not. How many of you have a parent who could just give you a look? And you knew that you should stop whatever it was you were doing or a tone of voice, where they punished you. Or they rewarded you. And so you started to learn who you were and you push boundaries. Sometimes you got in trouble for pushing certain boundaries you learned, you are conditioned to be who you are on an ego level. So all of these experiences happened in awareness. But they feel like they are us, we have these stories about our past. I went to school here, I grew up here

that's all ego stuff, all of those stories. There's nothing wrong with them. Other than we get very, very attached to our stories, we get attached to our labels, we get attached to our body, our relationships, our jobs, all of these things that are not who are what we are.

We get attached. That's ego. an ego makes us also think that being attached to it is good. It feels like an existential threat, if anything, challenges our ego. I'll never forget I had a particular relative who's not not in my life anymore. But she was the kind of person who would always start trouble. At family gatherings. She was always angry with someone, she was always not speaking to some member of the family, she would say nasty things to get emotional responses, and it would it would start fights. And I tried. I tried for a really long time not to get riled up by her I knew what she was doing. You know, we've probably all had toxic people like that in our lives. And what she would do is she would hunt for buttons, she would hunt for things that got you upset things that could trigger you. And sit you know, to say them to you because she wanted she felt this, this perverse sense of, of satisfaction, I guess, pleasure. It was absolute pleasure from stirring the pot or saying horrible things to people and getting away with it. And you couldn't call her on anything because she would fly into a rage. In fact, she got she got violent, which is why she's not not a part of my life anymore. I have no tolerance for that this body mind is I'm trying to keep it safe. And so, um, anyway, she felt you know, I would just stay above it all and okay, whatever, she's doing her thing and she wants to get somebody upset. And she looked at me one day and said, You're not a man of your word. And that hit me like an ice pick to the chest. Because I had egoic ly identified myself as somebody who was profound, a very truthful it was part of my identity part of my ideal identity. Even though you know, we talked to the kids about Santa Claus, and, you know, there were certainly untruths, but that wasn't part of my self concept, my idealized self concept. My ego was that I'm, I tell the truth, I'm an honest person, I make an honest effort. She said that and it it I felt my blood boil underneath. You know, when they say getting hot under the collar, that's exactly what it felt like. And she made some reason we had been trying to we had talked about going on vacation with the these members of my family at one point, and it never, it never panned out. You know, I had I had thrown three or four dates across and it never ever, ever, ever came to pass. And that absolutely no fault of mine, or anybody's really whatsoever. We just could not find a mutual time for that to occur. And that's, and that's what she, well, you said, we were going on vacation together and we haven't gone on vacation together and blah, blah, blah, you know, and I was like, hold on a minute, you know, and then I had to, like, get into the thing where I start to fight about facts, and you know, all this stuff. And I'm like, I gave you guys four dates, and none of them worked for you. And then you had a date of didn't work for me and what what's the you know, what's all this stuff? What is all this stuff? This is cuckoo, this is crazy. But it was my ego that was acting up. So the ego wants to keep the body mind alive. It's a survival mechanism. It comes from the fact that human beings are we're individuals, but we're social creatures, we're wired for social socialization, we have to, to survive as a species. We had to team up, we didn't run faster than most animals or climb trees or have sharp teeth or claws. We had to hunt using cooperative hunting, we had to make tools, we had to shelter together for protection. So you know, at some point in the development of prefrontal cortex and whatever, ego became important, seeing oneself as a separate entity living inside a body, or being the body and responding to the names that our tribe mates were calling us. And having esteem, feeling good. Hey, I'm a member of the jab, jab tribe. And you know, the we're better than the guys on the other side of the river who are in a different tribe. They're awful. Look at those people, let's do warfare against them. It's the history of the world right there. They've got something we want. They're not as good as we are, we're gonna go kill all of them and take it. So the ego develops. And again, the problem is not necessarily that you have an ego and that you need to destroy it or kill it or dissolve it or make it go away. Although a little dissolution is not a bad thing. It's that you're attached to the ego at the level of identity. Is it useful for me to be able to respond to the name my parents gave me? Yes, it is, in certain circumstances. Is it useful for me to play the role of dad? Absolutely, and I love my children dearly.

But in the realm of spiritual development of spiritual truth, the ego is a little bit of a trap. It's not an enemy. It's a survival mechanism. It has good intentions. It's just very, very powerful for most of us, and it can take us out of spiritual truth. spiritual truth is the reality that you are pure consciousness. And that there is only one consciousness, there's one awareness. Awareness is one thing.

This is part of non dual thinking or non duality, non dual meaning not to.

At certain levels of spiritual awakening, one can have a persistent experience of non duality where everything feels like everything feels like it's the same thing. That's how you experience you're experiencing. Everything being part of the same experience. So if I'm having a conversation with somebody, awareness is both sides of that conversation. It's just like a little play that's acting out.

So

but deeper, even beyond non duality there's more, right? There's more and deeper levels of this experience of being pure, empty caught consciousness, empty awareness. And when I say empty awareness, I don't mean there's nothing there. I mean, there's space there for holding everything. Imagine, imagine a magical box in which you could place everything there is. That's, that's awareness. Now, at deeper levels of awakening, the experience is like the entire universe is peering through a single set of eyes. As I look out from this body through these eyes, it feels like the entire universe is looking through these eyes at this moments like I've, I've gone to, I've gone to a place where there's a peephole and a wall and I'm looking through. And what ego says is that I am the people. Not the one looking through. So what do we do? Like knowing all of this is great. Is it knowing all of this is one thing? What do we do with this, this is just information. There is something to be said for information helping us in the process of development and awakening. But it's not all there is. And it's certainly not the most important thing there is. What's most important is shifting awareness, shifting our paradigm, I realized that paradigm shifting is an overused business term. But what we mean by paradigm shift is an entire a shift in worldview. Everything about how the universe exists shifts for you. And it's about getting in touch with what you are at your core. Now, last night, the night before I recorded this episode, I taught a an hour and 15 minute long. Course in spiritual awakening, just a short webinar an hour, an hour and 15 minutes, that shorter than most, you know that a lot of meditation sessions, there was a little bit of talking. And then we dove into four different meditations in that period of time that were very short. This is gonna sound braggy I'm not saying this to brag. I'm saying this in the example will become clear in a moment. But I had people on this webinar, who were some more experienced meditators who had been practicing Buddhism for years and others in various levels of, you know, spiritual development and practice. And, you know, these short experiences were designed to lead people further and further inward. And just disconnect more and more from the ego. And some of the some of the comments that I got back from people, not to pat myself on the back too much because that's ego. But we're, you know, this is profound. I thought it would take years of practice to get here and you went straight to the heart of it. Well, this isn't anything special. It's not me. I'm not a guru. I can't tap you on the head and make you enlightened. It only works that way. Because you're already enlightened. Your core is awareness, pure awareness. It's just a matter of it's not a matter of attaining anything. It's not a matter of learning anything, it's not a matter of I don't know, reaching the fifth dimension or, you know, ascending, or any of that stuff and not that there's not that there's anything wrong with those practices, I don't know anything about them. I'm not putting anybody else's practice down, I'm talking about my approach was not to do any of that. But it was to guide people to relax and sink into the awareness that they already are, that is always present. It's always there. You don't have to seek it. You don't have to seek awareness, it's already there. So what do we have to do to bring that to the forefront? What do we have to do to live from that space? Not much. Part of it involves detaching from the ego detaching, not deleting the ego not having ego death. Although those things can happen in profound spiritual experiences, I still think it can be useful, the ego can be useful as long as we are not letting it run our lives. As long as we are not getting pulled in and attached to it, it is still useful for this body mind to play the role of dad to play the role of teacher to play the role of the lover to play the role of the guy who answers to my name. You know, imagine if I needed to renew my driver's license, and I go into the DMV and they call my name. And I sat back egoless and didn't respond to it. I'd wind up driving on an expired license. So no, these things can be useful. I don't, you know, the people who look at and study these things. There are lots of their, you know, longitudinal academic studies of spiritual awakening and what that experience is like where they've gone and, you know, interviewed 1000s of people over many years and talk to, you know, monks and other people to find out what these experiences the experience of awakening and, and detachment from the ego, spinning the ego down. dissolving the ego a little bit to solving the by the ties that bind us to the ego. And when it seems, is they have not reached a level they've not you know, in in research and study and even in the spiritual writings, it doesn't seem like there is an end to the levels of awakening to the depth. Maybe, you know, at certain levels. From what I've read, and had some experiences in this department, the idea of volition goes away, meaning I'm not even running this body anymore, the body is running itself, this body mind can take care of itself. It can feed itself, it can go out and have a job. It does not need it does not need the help of awareness. It's going it's occurring inside awareness, but it doesn't need any help. It already knows what to do. It's been conditioned really well. Or you know, well to some degree. This body mind can run itself I don't have to put effort into that it feels like you do. What if everything were completely effortless. Now that doesn't mean the body stays all in bed all day and never moves and you know, eventually dissolves. Because your your body isn't efforting.

But what if you abided What if your attention, abided lived from spacious, still blissful, peaceful consciousness which is what you are? What if you lived from that place, all the time. And your body and mind just kept on doing what it was doing appropriately. That's a profound step into spiritual awakening, it's a profound place to land. It's a profound you know, way, I guess it's a profound shift in consciousness for most people. But that's their that's available to you right now

can live from that awakened state, you can, you can reach back right now and touch on that. Just with your intention. You don't need to sit for 20 years and watch your breath. Although I highly recommend meditation. Meditation turns off the default mode network. In other words, it the default mode network being the part of the brain that ruminates on stuff and thinks it's you. Meditation deactivates this to some extent. So it loosens the grasp of ego. It loosens the identification with ego.

Now, one of one of the meditators with me last night, in this workshop that I taught, you know, we did this, you know, we did these series of recitations in the beginning. So just, you know, repeat after me. And part of that go through this series of recitations that were meant to loosen up the grip of ego. And then ask ourselves the question, What am I and rest in that space of whatever comes up? And one of the meditators asked, well, when you had us ask the question, What am I? The word one came up, is that okay? Is that okay? No, that's not No, I'm just kidding. That everything is okay. Everything that comes up, particularly in meditation is okay.

And, you know, that is an accurate, you know, if you're going to put a label on it, if you're going to put a label on, and we have to, to talk about it a little bit. It's hard. A lot of people who were there who were like, I can't really describe the experience too well, and I get it. You know, and they tried, and they like, my edges disappeared. And I said, Ah, yes, boundary lessness are like, Oh, that's it. That's it. So it took a group effort took more than one brain to come up with a good description of what some experienced

and people can just float in this boundary LIS, peaceful, blissful state, and the body doesn't die. The ego might rebel a little bit in the beginning. Because it thinks if you let go of your grasp on the ego, your attachment to the ego, it thinks your body's going to die, or it'll let you know it'll feel like that. Or I won't be me anymore. The me who I think I am will disappear. That's another form of death. So my comments about that are kind of twofold. One is that who said death is a terrible thing. You have a body, you should take care of it and keep it alive. You've got stuff to do. But death isn't all that scary once you realize that you are pure awareness, and that you were never born and will never actually die

the second thing is the, the the eye that you think you are, when you say I am, changes all the time, we've talked about this already in this podcast, this, you that you think you are, is not who you are, but it also changes. You ever get hangry your body chemistry changes, your personality, your perception, your how tired you are, whether you've just exercised physical processes that are changing, you have natural body rhythms, you have a diurnal rhythm. Right, you have all these bio rhythms, you might have a monthly cycle. Right? So does that profoundly change who you are? Well, it can, it can change your experience profoundly from moment to moment. So you're constantly dying and being reborn as something someone new from a from a strict ego perception. So when I stopped doing this episode, I start recording this episode of the podcast if one of my children called me, I would shift into dad mode. And the the me that was recording this podcast would change significantly would go away, would die off to be reborn another day? It's not that serious. It's really not, it's really not that serious. But the ego will have you think the ego will lie to you, you will die if I go away. has no qualms about lying to you to get its way. So what do we do about this? How do we begin to unravel the ego or not the ego itself but attachment to the ego. First of all, let the ego take care of itself. You don't have to add anything, you'd have to take anything away you don't have to fight with it.

But understand that you are pure awareness and everything that comes up including your experience of having a body is coming up in awareness. And that's what you are, you are aware of your body your body is the object in the I have a body I see my body, I is the subject. Body is the object in that sentence. You are not objective, meaning you're not an object. Nothing that arises as an object in your awareness can be you, you are the subject you're the witness, you're the observer. But even those are objects you're the capacity you're the stage you are the movie screen on which life is projected you can have a very direct experience of that in a very with a very short meditation

so what we can do is to start recognizing the egos effect on our perceptions on our life. How does identifying with my name? How does identifying with my self image as an honest person or this kind of person or whatever? How does identifying with the labels or the body? How does that affect my perception of spiritual reality

and being your beingness being what you are at your core doesn't require any effort at all. None whatsoever. It's already who you are. It's sort of like looking at a bird and saying, how much effort are you putting into being a bird? Well, that would be a silly question, right? But we put effort into being our ego, to thinking we are our ego we put effort in, or wear certain clothes that match who I am my style. I, you know, act like, Dad, when I'm in that role, I act like a podcaster. When I'm recording a podcast, the body mind is F is efforting. But the self is not. And there's an expression I really like I don't know where it came from, I learned it from Hale Dwoskin of the Sedona Method, fame, wrote the book, The Sedona Method, and teaches the Sedona Method. And I really like him as a teacher, I've I've been with him live a couple times, and online a whole lot and read his book and really, really liked the teaching of the Sedona Method. But one of the things he says is, and this might have come from his teacher, or somewhere else I don't know, is being not the doer. Be not the doer, meaning the body of mind is doing stuff. Don't identify with that. Don't identify with doing anything, you're not doing anything you're being

you are awareness, and there's no effort in awareness. Look at something wherever you are right now, whether you're listening to this and in your car or somewhere else, you can look at something that's in front of you, even if you're driving, it's totally fine. I'm not going to do any meditation here. Just look at look at something, see something in front of you. Or hear something or touch something doesn't matter perceive something.

How much effort did you put into seeing or hearing or whatever you might have looked you might have directed your awareness at something you might have directed your attention, your awareness, you directed your attention at something. But beyond that you didn't do anything?

How much effort do you have to put into experience the fact that you have a body? No, I know you might put effort it might feel like you're putting your body's putting effort in to maintain your body have to eat things and exercise and drink things and go to the bathroom and what you know, wash your face and all kind of you know, whatever it is that you do that, that feels like effort to take care of the body. And if you didn't, eventually the body would disappear. But I'm talking about right now in this moment. Whatever perception you have, that you have a body whether you you know can feel it or see it or hear some part of it. Some aspect of your body. How much effort is required to perceive the body? None. None. Because awareness doesn't put in effort. awareness does not effort. It is effort less. With that, I'm going to leave you a little bit with a little bit of, you know something to do just start noticing. When ego comes heavily into play, when you're over-identified with the body, and ask yourself what would happen what would I be if I'm not this body? What would I be if I'm not this name that my parents labeled me with or whoever labeled me with? What would I be? If not the thoughts running through my head that change every 10th of a second? What would I be if not these perceptions that arise in my experience?

start looking at that. And your attachment to Eagle will start to unravel a little bit and will take you deeper and deeper. Anyway, I hope you're well I love you all. We'll talk really soon

Announcer 50:47

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to MaineShamain.com That's maineshaman.com

EP59 The Ecstasy of Divine Love: A Spiritual Journey of Self-Discovery

Announcer 0:27

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:48

Hello. Hello, everyone. Hello, my friends. Thank you for joining me again. I am going to talk today to you about one of Gosh, one of my very favorite topics in the whole world. I've done episodes about this topic before. But you know, I always approach it from a different perspective and bring in different you know, aspects and talk about different ways of experiencing what I'm talking about. So today I'm going to talk about love. Specifically, I'm going to talk about divine love. I'm going to talk about ecstasy. And I realized when we talk about ecstasy and love, very frequently people think about sex. And that's fine. I may touch on that a little bit, but not necessarily what I'm talking about. And I'm going to talk about the perspective. The spiritual perspective, that all love is divine love. I will get into that I will get into what love is from a spiritual perspective, I will get into why we pursue? Why do we pursue the experience of divine love or why many people pursue the experience of divine love, and why we find that within

and that when you become immersed in divine love, it is ecstatic and blissful and freeing. It is a form of spiritual awakening, for sure. So I want to begin by talking about one of my very favorite spiritual teachers. Now, this is not somebody who I had the honor of meeting in this lifetime. He passed away in 1994. I didn't find out about his teachings until sometime in the 2000s. But and he is maybe not as famous as some other teachers. Because he wasn't he wasn't necessarily out there seeking social approval. He was teaching and really he became better known through his students who, who, you know, published his material and to this day there are you know, at least one or two of them out there still teaching his stuff. So anyway, this teacher, his name was Lester Levinson, le ve n s o n if you want to look him up, founder of what is called now the Sedona Method. But his story is a good one. His story is a great one it It illustrates what can happen with anybody. So Lester was a physicist, a staunch material realists maybe an atheist, I don't know. I don't know about that specifically, but not a very spiritual person. And this story Is that in the 1950s Lester was a fairly young ish guy at that period of time, he had a major heart issue that wound him up in the hospital, I don't know if it was a heart attack or you know what, but a major cardiac issue that wound him in the emergency room. And, you know, medicine being what it was back then. The doctors had no way to treat him. And so they sent him home, they sent him home essentially, to die. They said, Go home, and be comfortable and don't even don't even stand, don't even don't walk a flight of stairs that will do you in that little bit of stress on your heart will do you and so less was either in his late 40s or early 50s. And he went home. And he was kind of, you know, he was angry. All of this as one as happens. And he, you know, got angry that these dogs doctors, how dare they send them home to die? That's, you know, whatever. And, you know, he came to the realization that, well, maybe these doctors are doing all they can, you know, maybe I'm being angry at them for no good reason. And he also said, you know, I'm, you know, I'm a scientist, I'm a physicist, I'm a smart guy, I'm educated. How am I going to figure out my life? How, you know, whatever, whatever is left of it? How am I going to figure all of this out? And what he did was, he systematically converted all of his feelings about people, the doctors, starting with the doctors and whoever, into love, into loving feelings. Now, I know this sounds this might, you know, if you're have not studied his teachings, or done any of the practices, this might sound impossible, how do I just convert my feelings into loving feelings? I'm in there, and there are ways to do that. But he had nothing, you know, he had nothing else to do, he was lying in bed waiting to die. And he cured himself. And he lived into his 80s he lived I don't know, you know, 3040 more years after he was supposed to die. And at the time, modern medicine could not treat him. And he wound up living into the mid 90s. And along the way, he went, you know, you're gonna use this expression, he went free. He had a spiritual awakening, he became enlightened. This is, you know, various terms for what, you know, the spiritual awakening that he went through, from essentially diving into a place of love. Now, I feel like at this point, I need to talk a little bit about love. And define it from a spiritual perspective, because there are all kinds of ideas about love, right? We have the Hallmark Channel, romantic idea of falling in love. You know, the fairy tale version of the princess being rescued, falling in love. We have you know, so very often we think of romantic love. And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with romance. There's nothing wrong with erotic love. All these expressions of love can be beautiful, and loving and wonderful. And love is a really word weird word in English, because we have this one word that we use for many different experiences, right? So you can love your lover you can love your children, you can love chocolate. Those are not the same things. But we say that right in English. And I know in other languages, there are many words for love and Persian, I think they're 85, something like that. So it becomes this generic catch all for fondness or extreme like or whatever. But when we talk about pure love, from a spiritual perspective, that's not exactly what we're talking about.

When we say love, from a spiritual perspective, what we're talking about is approval and acceptance. I like to use the word holding, but I'll have to describe that a little bit, because that might seem strange. Now, if we look at the universe, all there is what you know, and we think of that as an emanation of Source consciousness, you might say, God, or units of the universe, or Brahman, or whatever. But if we look at the consciousness, that is, everything there is that holds everything, there's it, it holds, everything there is every experience, every individual, every thing is held. And there's no greater like, we can place all kinds of human derived conditioned meanings on all kinds of stuff. But there's nothing in this universe that places more importance on me, than the flowers I'm looking at, or the rock, or another person or anything, everything is just held. In the state of acceptance, we might say approval. And when we display disapprove of others, or things or whatever, we are rejecting part of the universe, we're pushing it away.

So what one of the things that Lester did was to, you know, ask himself, can I give this person approval for no good reason, just give them approval, because they are a part of the universe. Over and over again, he asked himself, and it really was just an invitation to give approval. Now, at this point, I know there are people out there, I can sense it, that there are people out there saying, Well, what about this person who abused me or harmed me? Or what about serial killers? Or, you know, this politician or this horrible person from history or whatever? And yeah, there, you know, there is that there is that but you know, and I come from into my spirituality from a history of childhood trauma. So, can I approve of the, you know, the the ones at whose hands I suffered? And then the answer that actually is Yes, I can. And not doing so is more harmful to me than anything else. So this is where forgiveness comes in. And again, I can sense that, well, you know, why would I let so and so off the hook for having done such horrible things? And the answer is you're not you're not letting them off the hook. That is not what forgiveness is. You know, I can forgive the person who stole from me and still take them to court and tried to return my, you know, get my property returned or have the police intercede or whatever. But I'm not disapproving of them as a person. I don't have to accept bad behavior. Right. So when my children were small, one of the things I tried to do and not always successful I was, and still am an amateur parent and not perfect in any way, in any way like that. We all have perfection within us. But, you know, as an, you know, as I, as beingness express myself as this body in this mind, I do things that are sometimes not intended or, you know, wish I hadn't. It's all part of learning, though. But what I would tell my children when they were little, and they were acting up, I would say, I do not like your behavior, I love you. But your behavior is not okay. But I love you, and your behavior does not change how I feel about you as a person. And yeah, I realize it's hard to get there. I do. You know, I've been in an abusive relationship where my partner was, mentally and physically abusive towards me. And I wanted them out of my life. And they are out of my life. How do I you know, hold them in my consciousness when I think about that person. Well, you know, when, when everything happened when this person you know, and I, when we broke up, and they left my life, and I had been severely traumatized by that whole experience, and it had brought up my childhood trauma. You know, one of the things that I recognized was that the emotional charge that I held about this person, the anger and the hurt, and the sadness, and everything all balled into one and anyone who's been through this knows that there's even though the relationship ended dramatically and horribly, and there was abuse and all of these things. And even after the relationship ended, this person was doing things to try to harm me. There was still grief over the loss of the relationship. Isn't that weird? But it's not that's what happens. I realized that holding on to this emotional charge was a not keeping me safe from anything. Because it wasn't that charge was not keeping that person out of my life. In fact, that charge was making me think about that person more and just making me continue to hurt and continue to suffer. So I made it a point to let go of the emotional charge, the negative emotional charge and hold that person in love in my consciousness, not romantic love. Not I want to get back together with this person. Not that I ever want this person back in my life because of the behaviors. But my consciousness of this person is lighter and it's free. Oh my gosh, the freedom the hurt and the anger and the sadness and the grief. Were like heavy chains weighing me down

and now I feel very free of that and that in in I would. I would want this for everyone. I want this feeling for everyone. So again, it's the same thing with, you know, people who have abused me in the past or done, you know, done, done things to me to this body this mind and let go of the emotional charge, and I work, you know, I work to do that whenever it comes up again, I'm not to say, not to say I'm done with my work, I will continue to work on myself for the rest of this lifetime anyway. But it is so freeing, and it's blissful. And it can be ecstatic. So, this love this acceptance, this you know, all of these things. So there's a thing going on in, particularly in the US, currently. And it concerns me that people don't see exactly what has happened, but I'm going to talk politics a little bit. So what happens very frequently in politics is that people have realized that you can gain power over people by having them focus on a common enemy. This is what the Nazis did, right? pre World War Two, they used all kinds of propaganda to turn people against the Jews and the gypsies and people with disabilities and you know, Freemasons and you know, the the Jews primarily, but it was more than that. These people are out to get you they're about to take things that you know, they're going to take things from you x y, z, whatever the thing in the associated them with animals they're inhuman, and which led to you know, of course, the Holocaust, horrible atrocities. And I see this going on right now in American politics, where the enemy of the day has shifted. And people don't even realize it. You know, the new the new enemy for one political faction is you know, trans people. Trans people, drag shows they're out to get your children blah, blah, blah. Creating a threat creating an enemy, so that they can Oh, go with us. We're gonna save you from this enemy that's out to get you. There's been drag shows forever Shakespeare plays were all the female characters were men in drag. You know, and we have, you know, remember the TV show Bosom Buddies and that wasn't the first media thing where people were in drag. It's been going on forever. Suddenly, it's a problem suddenly that you know

look out when people try to tell you who your enemy is. Look out. They do not have your your best interest at heart. They are about controlling you. That being said, let's go back to love and acceptance and approval.

Imagine living in a world where everybody felt safe just being who they are.

Imagine if you always felt safe being who you are expressing who you are expressing or just living your life. And you didn't have to hide anything or justify anything. And if you live like that now congratulations. That's what we should want for everyone. So, I go back to what I call observable qualities of source of God of the universe. There is room for everyone, everyone is held in the universal consciousness, everyone and everything is held without more importance being placed on one thing or another. There's no hierarchy, hierarchy hierarchies are constructed is not part of unconditioned consciousness. Part of spiritual awakening is involves undoing a significant amount of our conditioning, we're conditioned away from being you know, being one with the universe we're conditioned towards being experiencing consciousness as an ego as an individual unconnected from the rest of the universe, but we're all part of the same thing. We are all a part of divinity and you can experience that you can go inside and experience the reality of that you don't have to take my word for it. At initial levels of spiritual awakening, what happens is you get an experience of being interconnected with all things at later levels you know are deeper and more profound levels, you have experiences of non duality, non dual meaning not to not experiencing self and other or subject and object but experiencing everything as one at even deeper levels you experience yourself when you say i your i am Ness your beingness as the entire universe you just happen to be looking through one set of eyes your the entire universe peering through your eyes underneath all of this separation, ego separation and there's subject and object and

underneath all of that is oneness and this is why I say that all love is self love. When I am being loving towards others I am experiencing love here's the secret not necessarily that much of a secret but it's a secret if you want to experience more love and who doesn't become more loving Isn't that an amazing idea? If you want to experience more love don't seek love be loving be in love

now that doesn't mean that you wander around the world starry eyed you know we the we have this stereotypical I know hippie I guess for lack of a better term from movies and TV. You know, throwing flowers on everyone and whatever you don't have in there's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to be like that. It's just when you encounter any experience other beings. You work towards generating the feeling of love towards them. Until that becomes your natural state How do you know that is your natural state? Well, you will feel this warm sense of bliss of peace. Of, of ecstasy. Now I'm not talking necessarily about sexual ecstasy, although that can be a part of it when, you know, when you're with a partner, or by yourself or with multiple partners, whatever, you know, and again, our sexual morality is about kin cultural conditioning. So we let go of, we let go of judgment.

And we become more sex positive, we say, you know, as long as pleasure seeking is consensual by all parties. And consent is pretty straightforward. Everybody has to agree to everything at all times, anybody can stop agreeing at any time, everybody needs to be an adult. Children can't consent animals can't consent. People who are unconscious can't consent. That's kind of it. If you are having sexual activity, whether that is alone, or with a partner, or with more than one person, other person, and you can hold yourself and anyone else involved in love, and complete acceptance and utter approval, that's when you get this intimacy.

Right, that will make the experience deeper, and more blissful. And I would say, spiritual. If you have never experienced that in your sex life, you're you know, you're in, you're in for something life changing. We'll put it this way. And if you know, again, if you're, if you're asexual, that's fine. If you're, you know, if you're alone, if this you can do this, you can do this practice during masturbation. And that's, you know, that is also a beautiful experience. It's an experience of self love. But here's the thing. And I said this before, and I'll I'll explain that all love is self love. What do I mean by that? Well, I go back to the idea that we're all we all come from the same source. We're all expressions of beingness. Of, of consciousness. You know, I remember they're listening to a recording an audio recording of Lester Levinson, who I talked about at the beginning of the podcast. And he had been like, he went to some spiritual conference. And he didn't know that he was going to be asked to speak. But they asked him to speak and he's in it basically, imperturbable you couldn't, you know, mess this guy up? So he's like, sure, you know, whatever. And he got up and he said, I don't know if I'm supposed to talk about me, or talk about you. Like, talk about me talk about you? What's the difference? And people kind of laughed. And he was using humor, as he often did. And I liked that. I like the use of humor to explain spiritual principles and get to understanding. There's so much out there that spirituality, spirituality is sacred and you know, laughter, laughter and joy and all of these things don't belong in spirituality. It's hogwash. There are times for all of it. There. There's times for all of that experience laughter and love and joy are all part of all you know, all a part of it. And when you get to a certain level, all of your experience is spiritual, all of it. Your very consciousness isn't is in, you know, an experience of spirit. No matter how we get trapped in the 3d, physical world, you realize that even that is spiritual, even the expression of this physical world in our consciousness is a spiritual experience. You're having a spiritual experience right now not just because not because you're listening to me talk on a podcast that would be very egoic of me, right? Anytime you listen to me is a spiritual experience. True, but not because listening to anybody else is not a spiritual spiritual experience, all experience a spiritual all love is self love. Because there is no difference between you and I underneath at all. So when I love you, I am loving myself

so again, you know, the question sometimes arises, what about serial killers? Or people who committed genocide? Or, you know, these people who did these horrible things? Yes, we can agree that these things that they did were horrible. But, you know, and coming from a place of ego, a place of delusion. Because to do that, to do something horrible like that. You have to experience others as separate from you. Right. And when we do horrible things to other people, we're doing it, we're doing it to ourselves, because there is no difference. But how do we like, there's so much emotional charge with somebody who's done these horrible things? How do we hold them in love and again, we don't we don't approve of those things. We don't say, oh, you know, I need to be in love. So genocide is okay, or being a serial killer or you know, being an arsonist or you know, doing those things, we don't have to be okay with that. Underneath the people underneath that behavior underneath the, the ego, the twisted conditioning is pure beingness. And we're attached to that. As much as we might, you know, as much as our egos might not like to be we're attached at a level of pure spirit and ultimately, holding on to anger and hatred and all of those things that harms nobody but us.

Right now the ego. The ego is a trickster. It's your very own trickster spirit. Congratulations. how useful the ego says if I give these things up, you will be unsafe. It feels that way, doesn't it? If I give up my anger if I give up my hatred, I will be unsafe. This body might die. Well, I've got a little bit of news for you. If you have a body It will eventually die. The body that I am using to speak to you on this podcast will die. I know there are people out there who are like, Oh, we're, you know, if we can study sharks that live for 600 years and, you know, find out, you know, tweak genetics and whatever, we might be able to prevent people from dying forever. Can you imagine what a hellhole on earth that would create in about a single generation when there's not enough food or water for everybody to live? And wars breakout? Because there's, I mean, people would start dying from warfare, that's for sure. But nobody ever, you know, grew old and died

imagine doubling the earth's population every 10 years or so.

You know, so I can't, I can't imagine that. I'm not, you know, I'm part of that the quest for physical immortality. Foremost is ego. Now, there are stories of spiritual masters like Baba Ji, for example, in the Himalayas, said that he's been alive for hundreds of years that people still sometimes run into him and study with him. I don't know the truth of the matter there. You know, but you know, this, if that is a true story, and it does almost doesn't matter if it is or isn't because the, the teachings are good and all of that. This is not somebody who's, you know, populating, you know, having a bunch having 20 Kids and populating the earth and then those kids are living forever and having each one of them having 20 kids and you know, it's different. It's different situation. Anyway, um, I want to talk a little bit about my grandmother for a moment. Now, my grandmother passed away a couple of years, a couple of weeks ago, at the end of February, a few days after my birthday in February, she passed away. She was 106 years old. And I absolutely love my grandmother. Wonderful, interesting, quirky, lady, very religious, very spiritual woman. Not from a judgy perspective, or whatever. Just her faith was really important to her. And as I still remember this as a child, this lesson that she taught me because she taught, she taught in her church for many years, she teach Bible lessons. She was a reader in her church, and she taught, she taught Sunday school, I went to Sunday school with her and she would always, she would bribe us with candy bars after if we went to Sunday school with her. So she said, somebody had asked her, you know, what is her idea of heaven? And what is her idea of hell? And she said, when I am angry with somebody, when I'm full of hatred and rage, and and all of these things, I'm in hell, I'm in hell right here. I'm suffering right here on Earth. That's what hell is like. But when I am loving, when I am being loving, and when I am when I am being kind and generous and loving towards others than I am in heaven. What a brilliant piece of wisdom from, you know, from this woman who was born in 1916 in rural Maine. And what a brilliant piece of wisdom she was talking about her own consciousness and her ability to experience heaven and hell right here on Earth. As I speak to you right now, I just I have to say this I'm looking at my back window. There are three deer that just trotted through my backyard and what a beautiful I just love to see wildlife and these beautiful Oh 345 There's more trotting through now. I love to see this I love to see wildlife and so I thought I would share that with you. It just creates this beautiful feeling in me when I see these beautiful beautiful animals walking through and I love I love where I lived for that and just lovely just lovely. Anyway I thought I would share because i i Am I being loving towards you, my my dear listener. Anyway, this is where I will leave this for today. And I hope you will put some of this into prayer practice into mind think about it a little bit. I hope you're happy and healthy. I wish you all the best. And I do love you

Announcer 46:22

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshman.com

Ep58 Recognizing the signs of Spiritutal Awakening

Announcer 0:29

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:49

Hello, hello, hello, everybody.

Good morning. Good afternoon, good evening, whatever time of day it is for you. Today we're talking about spiritual awakening, we're going to talk about what it is, how to recognize it, why it causes problems? For some people, what that what does it mean, what is spiritually awakened, even mean? can be a confusing topic for people. And what happens pretty frequently, maybe once a week, about, about ish, somebody contacts me, looking for guidance, looking for help looking for something or just wanting to have a conversation, having gone through what they determined as some kind of spiritual awakening. And it's not necessarily for me to say whether or not a person has been through awakening. Because it's a hard term to define, first of all, and there's this fine line I'm going to talk about, between sort of mental, what we would consider what the Western what Western medicine would consider mental illness, and spiritual awakening. And this is not to be ableist, or anything like that. Because I'm not but there are certain very specific mental illnesses that mimic or go along, go along with or are a part of, or lead into spiritual awakening. They are they're associated, and I'm going to talk about why I believe that is, as well. And a lot of times, people who are going through a spiritual awakening experience have a breakdown of sorts, what we'd call them, you know, a mental breakdown, a nervous breakdown, a psychotic break all of these things. From a, you know, modern Western medical perspective but lead into some sort of spiritual awakening. And I've talked before I've written about the intersection of mental health and spirituality, particularly because I come from a shamanic background. And in shamanism, you know, you're dissociating and hallucinating and you know, all of these things, all of these labels can be placed on what you're doing when you're practicing shamanism. Excuse me, it's early morning here. My clock says 6:34am. But it is really my biologically we just criss crossed daylight savings. And so it's 530 for my body thinks it's 530 for take a little while for it to get used to that. So let's talk about spiritual awakening and and what it is. And it's a little bit hard to define. And there's some issues, there's some, maybe some misconceptions with spiritual awakening. And I'm going to use the word spiritual awakening instead of some of the religious or spiritual terms like enlightenment or Christ consciousness or, you know, any any other thing. I'm just going to use the term spiritual awakening, which is sort of a neutral descriptor. So one of the one of the problems with sort of defining or understanding or coming to to the conclusion that one may have had a spiritual awakening is that it's not one thing. It's a cluster of perceptual shifts, it's a big, when you've gone through an awakening, you've had a giant perceptual shift, your experience of the world changes completely. However, there, the experience is similar, but not always the same for everyone. And there are, I almost hate to use this term, but I don't have another way of describing it, there are levels and layers and nuances. So you could have a spiritual awakening, and then you could have another spiritual awakening, and then you could have another one and another one and another one, and go deeper and deeper and deeper into spirit. You can have a spiritual awakening and not stay in that awakened state, you may be not abiding, you don't instantly have an abiding state of awakeness, your state fluctuates, that shifts can change. Now, some people, some people reach a certain state a certain level of spiritual awakening. And that level becomes sort of a baseline that becomes their normal state. Then they can go deeper from there, or they can come back towards their old state, but seems to normalize, right? Hmm, you might have a normal sort of level, you know, sort of like a level of emotion that you stay at normally, are you a happy person? Are you a sad person are you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? Well, you're not always that one thing. There just happens to be your predominant emotional state. And the same is true for spiritual awakening, you are, have a baseline that you move around in, and that baseline when you go through an awakening can shift. So that's can be why it's challenging to sort of track down and categorize there are, there are researchers who are, you know, there's a guy duck, Dr. Jeffrey Martens, who's written a book, and talks about levels and locations and all of these things, and they've, you know, they've interviewed, I don't know how many people and built this huge matrix to say you're, you know, if you're experiencing this, this and this, you're on location one. And if you're experiencing this, this and this year, and location two, oh, but if you're in location two, you can have all of these different layers to that. And so, you know, that may or may not be useful to an individual, but it's useful from a research perspective, right, you have to be able to, to measure, categorize, you know, that kind of thing.

So, let's talk about how you might know if you've had a spiritual awakening experience. Now, some sometimes spiritual awakening comes with, as I said, a break you know, breakdown, like a nervous breakdown or mental breakdown or psychotic break or whatever. How you would know some of the characteristics of awakening would, how you would know this was a spiritual awakening is that you would exhibit you it afterwards, after you things settled down for you mentally, emotionally, your person perceptually, you would have shifted into a new state, a new baseline state is not even the right word. set of states set of experiences, your consciousness would have been fundamentally changed. Now spiritually awake, spiritual awakening has very little to do with intellectual knowledge. You can read all the books in the world, although there is a type of yoga. That is the yoga of learning the yoga of knowledge, that is, you know, potentially bring someone to enlightenment. I'm not going to argue with that. But that's not what the shift is. It's not like I didn't know things before. Now I know things. It's, you know, literally we, you know, the term is overused, but it's a paradigm shift for one thing, how you experience the world changes significantly. And so I think it'd be helpful if I, you know, if I were to describe some of these shifts, now, again, this is going to be different, a little bit for everyone, but some of these things will be present in any type of awakening, any type of spiritual awakening. The number one sign, I think, for, you know, that someone has been through a spiritual awakening is that there is a fundamental okayness, there's a fundamental sense that everything is okay, no matter what is going on in the world, everything underneath it all is fundamentally okay. This is not to say at all, that if you have gone through a spiritual awakening, if you are in a state where you are living from a place of fundamental well being that you can still get pulled into drama, that you can still have emotional triggers that you can still have this or that. Now, for some people, they have gone so far into spiritual awakening that nothing perturbs them, that's a very deep level of awakening. imperturbability, and you don't interact with these people very much. There are lots of people out there that have this experience, but they're not out, they tend not to be out there. You know, teaching being very public, whatever, because they go beyond the level where, where approval seeking is important for them. Right. So, at certain levels of spiritual awakening, people become less social. This isn't to say that introverts are spiritually awake. It's not introversion, or extroversion, it's something completely different. Introvert introversion and extraversion are really about where you get get your energy, right? Do you get energy from interacting with people? Or do you get energy when you're solo? You know, do you have to recharge your batteries by spending alone time that's introversion and extraversion, right? This is different this level of spiritual awakening is this stuff just isn't important anymore. alone or in groups, it's just not where the energy comes from. So that's, that is a big one, that everything is fundamentally okay. And at, at initial levels of spiritual awakening, there's still a background, whether or not you're getting pulled into daily trauma, there is still a sense of fundamental okayness. Now, there is a there are, you know, there's some other signs I want to talk about as well. One of them is, I will describe as in an increased sense of connection with the universe now this could come in the form of non dual experience or complete unity consciousness now. Personally, I don't like to talk about my experiences too too much, because it just, it comes off as bragging. And that's not that's not a great sign, you know, when people are, if people are bragging about their spiritual awakening, or whatever, that's not usually a good sign. I'll talk about ego in a second. But, um, but I, you know, I just, I want to talk about my personal experience, just because I think it's, it's illustrative and, and I can come from this, you know, this perspective but So, personally, I have had many experiences of non duality of being completely one with everything there is, in fact in shamanism that it gives you a very quick experiential, you know, very rapidly you have this experience. But that, for me is not my baseline. However, I do feel a fundamental interconnectedness with every one Everything with everything there is, it's hard to describe if you've never been there. But you know, beyond that is the sense of non duality in which there's no different, like, if I'm having in a non dual experience, if you're having a conversation with somebody, it feels like that conversation is coming from the same person. It doesn't mean you can't function in the world, in the 3d, physical, everyday world, you absolutely can. And in any level of spiritual awakening, there is some part of you that's still around that can function in 3d reality, although, you know, maybe, maybe there are very high levels, there are stories of Buddhist monks, for example, who, you know, form the rainbow body and essentially, leave the earthly plane in an energy body. So, you know, that that might be different for others. So one of the things is that there seems to be no, you know, nobody knows how deep spiritual awakening can go. There are a lot of systems out there that say, you know, xy, and z is the end state. But when people have researched this, they have found people that have gone beyond the head, it gets rarer and rarer as, as you might imagine, to the deeper one, the deeper one goes like there aren't. There are people who walk around in a complete non dual state every day. Not that many of them. That's their baseline. And then beyond that, is this sense, comes the sense beyond non duality comes a sense that the entire universe, that you are the entire universe, you're just experiencing reality through these, the eyes of this body, that you're currently borrowing or inhabiting, or whatever. There's a very, we'll say, way down the spiritual awakening pathway to having that experience. When people get to that, that level is very, very rare, very rare, like a handful of people in the world at any given time, to my knowledge, that that's their fundamental state. And the other thing is, those people are not going to can't get caught up in our quote unquote, petty dramas, and things like politics. Right? The why would you care if you're the entire universe, if that is your reality, that you are the entire universe, experiencing things through one person's eyes, along with that, along with that particular level, and some of the other levels as well? Are the, you know, come sometimes sort of supernatural abilities. And whether or not you want to believe in things like telekinesis, or by location, or whatever, these things have been recorded, sometimes under very rigorous scientific controls.

And, you know, sometimes these people who have these really, really supernatural abilities, if they do, they tend not to show them off. That's, they're not really interested. And also imagine imagine if, you know, I've talked about this, I've talked about this before, and I talk about this with clients who contact me and they're like, Oh, I've got this condition. And you know, what can I expect from having shamanic healing? And I said, you know, if I could guarantee instantaneous, miraculous healing to everyone I ever worked with, imagine how busy I would be imagine, you know, every person on like, if I could lay my hands on somebody and cure cancer, that's probably all I would ever do. However, imagine the line of people in front of my house or wherever I decided to do healings. You know, the world would be a path to your door and people who can sort of quote unquote, perform miracles. That's not really something they desire. So it's sort of it's this weird sort of thing. And I know I have a experienced people performing what would be considered miracles, witnessed firsthand with other people. Some very interesting, miraculous demonstration. And no of no firsthand of like a second hand of other people who could do some miraculous stuff. And sort of gave it up. Sort of like, oh yeah, I can do this, I can move objects with my mind, I can, you know, whatever. Telekinesis has been shown in labs and laboratories. Yes, there have has been some trickery. Sometimes there have been people trained by professional magicians who went in and fooled some researchers, but that doesn't mean all of the research is bogus. You know, there have, you know, there have been people that the government was very, very, very interested in psychic phenomena, such as telekinesis, and has been and has spend millions and millions of dollars, not just the US government, but other governments as well. To use this stuff to their advantage, one of the issues is, if I, you know, if you were really spiritually awakened and had emerged to the point where you could sort of bend reality to your will, you know, doing that on behalf of a government so that they could, you know, gain some political advantage over an adversary or whatever, they would have very little interest for. Right, that's petty politics, in the scope of the entire universe, very petty, and, and you would understand that doing it, you're, you're doing it so that very few very wealthy people could gain more power. I'm not going to get into conspiracy theories about the government. All you have to do is look and see that, you know, we have these Congress, people who, you know, had a career where they were making $40,000 a year go into Congress, and now they're worth $44 million. It's not a conspiracy, that's, you know, there is money to be made. So let's get back to spiritual awakening the signs of spiritual awakening. So the first is this fundamental sense of all being well with the world. Second is interconnection with everything there is with the universe with you know, whatever. This also, you know, from a religious standpoint, this could be like oneness with God or, you know, this or absorption into the Christ Mind. Or, you know, there are lots of sort of religious ways to describe this interconnection as well, spiritually, you know, in enlightenment, becoming one with everything. Reminds me of a really stupid joke. Which is, what did the Dalai Lama say to the hot dog vendor? Make me one with everything. Right? It's dumb joke. I actually saw a video of somebody telling that joke to the Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama was like, What are you talking about? He didn't under you know, didn't get it. But it's hard when you're translating a joke from English into some other language to get the new especially when it's a wordplay joke like that. But anyway, so there's there's that there's that there. So let's talk about ego a little bit. So there is a change, there's, with spiritual awakening comes a fundamental change to the ego. The ego is just your, your concepts and stories about who you are. When you say I am, you know, I am my name, I am my job. I am a parent, I'm one of the role that I take on these are you know, parts of your ego. And one of the you know, as not, you know, non awakened people are very, very attached to their ego. Right. So, I remember, and this is not I'm not using non awakened in any sort of pejorative term in any sort of way to put anybody down. We are all where we're at underneath at all, we are all one. So we are all you know, there's a part of all of us that is awakened

but I remember, you know, when my daughter was very little, and she went, she was in school, maybe four or five, five, probably five or six, right? She was in school. And she came home and she was really upset. And they said, What, you know what made you so upset? And she said, you know, this kid, this little boy in my class called me stupid. Right, he attacked her ego. She was upset. She's very attached to this concept of herself. That says, I am this being that is not stupid. And this violated my, this violated me. Very attached to her ego. Most of us are very attached to our egos. I remember I, a family member who likes to push everybody's buttons. And I thought myself above all of that. And one day I ran into her and she said, You're not a man of your word. And it like, felt like an ice pick to the heart. Because I thought of myself as a truth teller as somebody who is a person of his word. And there was ego and she knew that and she's, you know, she was she reveled in causing drama and causing people pain by attacking their ego now, when my daughter came home and said, So when so called me stupid, I said, Well, are you stupid? And she said, No. And I said, What if I said, You Sophia are a chair. And she giggled. I said, Well, are you a chair? She said, No. I said, so why are you going to get upset? It's me calling you stupid. That's not who you are. It's not what you are. And she kind of got it. Right. She kind of got that she didn't not have to take that to heart that was not a part of you know, even though it was violating her ego that was not you know, shouldn't have to be attached to that. And the lesson I learned from this person striking out at me and saying you're not a person of your word and is not to be so attached to my ego that I can get sucked into that drama. And so, spiritual awakening comes with a loosening have the attachment to ego, your ego will ship me shift fundamentally. And some people will talk about ego death or getting rid of the ego or you know, whatever. Um, I have met very awakened people who still experience ego. Very, very deeply awakened, people who still have a sense of this is who I am. However, what they often have given up is an attachment to that ego. The Buddha teaches that attachment is the source of suffering.

And so, ego isn't necessarily the problem. It's our attachment to now ego is a trickster. Ego exists, it had has a reason for existing. Right? It's not just this evil thing we need to kill and wipe out. Ego is around for the survival of the physical body. If I have an ego and I, you know, my ego identifies with being you know, owning a home and a car and you know, all of those things, things that provide me means for survival. That it's useful, but then it gets ego gets wrapped up in some stupid things sometimes, doesn't it?

You know, I see these people I drive this kind of car So I'm important, I need to feel important. I wear these designer clothes. So I feel important. This is this isn't these are ego traps, right? The need to feel above others is an ego trap. So that attachment. So also there is, you know, the over identification with things that we are not. And that takes us out of any state of spiritual awakening

I saw a recording of Bob Proctor talking, it's funny because I was just talking about this in another forum. And I was like, you know, I have this name, and this name is just a label. And then the very same day, as you know, spirit tends to put things in your path. I saw Bob Proctor who if you don't know, he's a spiritual teacher, I really like him, like his teachings. And what he said was, you know, I've got this name, Bob Proctor, but that's just a label my parents gave me when I was born, that's not who I am. And I have this body. And this body, someday will die and it changes over time. And that's not who I am. So it's this, this over identification, with the body with your name, with your job title with, you know, whatever, with labels with all kinds of stuff, things that you are not, you're not anything that you have. Right, I have a name, I have a body, I have thoughts, I have emotions, none of those things is who I am at my fundamental core. So with awakening comes a an experience. Not just a belief, not just an understanding, there is understanding that comes with it. But an experience of this is not who I am. So there is a loosening of the ties to ego.

So these, I would say, are the three big signs of awakening. There are others, but they're not necessarily as consistent. Not the same for everyone. So some of the things that can come along with spiritual awakening include massive shifts in perception. There are reports of people getting for example, better night vision. After spiritual awakening, or being able to, you know, hear and perceive things, certainly what we would consider what many would consider extrasensory perception comes in an increased intuition because you're plugged you know, you're plugged in more directly to the universe. Now, you're the ultimate state. Here's the thing about spiritual awakening, your beingness the core of who you are, ultimately does not change the field of consciousness that your does not change, you're not suddenly something different. And I like the word awakening because you know, enlightenment is pretty good too. But you you become awake to who and what you really are fundamentally, so the things that you are not lose their importance, you can still use them. I still have this identity, I still have this label. I have this body I can use to record this podcast for you. Underneath it all you and I are one that doesn't change who you are, at your very core never changes. It's timeless anyway. It's outside of time outside of space. Outside it's formless. Awakening doesn't mean you become that you becoming anything when you are spiritually awakened. You're just being what you are. Right So there can be this shift this massive shift in perception. One, that also that can include the perception living from the perception that you're not actually doing anything. Right, you can shift into when witness consciousness where your body mind is carrying out your day to day activities, but you don't necessarily feel like you're really that involved with them. You still get up and brush your teeth, you still, you know, do whatever, turn the lights on, whatever it is you do, when you get up in the morning, you still do all that stuff. But there's a feeling of you're kind of witnessing that. And your body mind is carrying on those activities on its own. That's one thing that can happen. Life becomes more effortless. There is the sense of okayness the sense of fundamental well being, as they call as you know, some researchers call it comes along with a sense of peace, a growing sense of peace in the background. That's not to say that the world that your body mind is inhabiting 3d reality becomes peaceful, all of a sudden that war stops and all of that sort of thing. No. Despite all of those things that are going on, you have a growing feeling of peace as a background. If you don't have that one of two things is going on. One is, or you know, one of several things, but one of the main things could be that you didn't actually you haven't actually gone through spiritual awakening. And that's fine. That's okay. Everybody is where they are. But if you go through an awakening experience, and you it did not bring with it at some point, yes. When you're going through, you know, when the when the initial shift can be very tumultuous, very chaotic, very unpeaceful. But when you come out of that there should be this real sense of peace in the background. If you don't have that, then you've experienced something else. And that's okay. It's not a judgement. It's just what it is. The other thing, the other sort of major thing that can be happening is that you have shifted, like your baseline hasn't shifted to awakening to the awakened state. So sometimes we have these little glimpses, we have these tastes of awakening, before we shift more permanently in our base state, very, very, very common. Almost everybody who does any kind of spiritual work experiences that

and then that's it. Everything is okay. Everything you're experiencing is okay. One of the interesting paradoxes with awakening is, you know, a team attainment feels less important. Gaining things seems less important, even though you may you know, once you've gone through a spiritual awakening, you might try to deepen that you might try to make it more permanent you might try it's not it's not about attainment for the sake of ego. That's not it. Hey, I'm level 32. I'm, you know, got my black belt, in awakening, whatever, you know, it's not none of that. Is that important? But they're, you know, sometimes there is a sense that, oh, there's more to this. And wouldn't it be interesting to see what's there to see what's going on

one of the things I want to talk about a little bit is what happens physiologically to people what happens to your physical body. Because your consciousness, when it shifts, can rewrite a bunch of stuff in your brain can rewrite stuff in your nervous system? No, I do not equate the brain and consciousness as being the same thing. And I heard an interesting metaphor for, you know, saying that the brain is is consciousness, or that consciousness is generated in the brain. So if you were to go out to somewhere where there was a primitive, and they just mean that from a technological standpoint, tribe, this is again, not, when I use the word primitive, sometimes that's taken to mean less than or whatever. But if I were wanting to survive in a jungle, or without technology, you know, I would want to have the skills, the extreme level of skills and knowledge that these people have. So if I were to go out to some tribal region somewhere, you know, South America, you know, the some places in Africa, some places where there are still tribes living without technology, right? It's getting rare to find these places in the world, but tribes that have not experienced technology before, and I were to bring a radio out there and turn it on. And all sudden, these tribes would hear, you know, these people who had never seen a radio or heard, you know, or were aware of how technology worked, the baseline, would suddenly hear voices coming out of the radio. And they might, you know, for example, come to the conclusion that there were tiny people living inside the radio, speaking through it. Very logical conclusion, if you don't know how radio works. And then let's say they took, you know, they would take apart the radio looking for those people, and when they would never find them, right, because they weren't aware that there were people in a studio miles and miles and maybe hundreds of miles away, broadcasting. Well, the same is true for consciousness and the brain. Right. And also, if they took the radio apart, the voices would stop. Right? The voices that were coming out of the radio would stop if they took it apart, looking for the source of these voices. Oh, we killed you know, we killed the people that live inside the radio or whatever. The same is true of the brain and people who research that looking for consciousness. Right, you can take the brain apart and it stops receiving, I think the brain is a receiver of consciousness and a processor and that does a lot of stuff for us. But it is not consciousness and we have not been able to locate consciousness in the brain. Yeah, you can damage the brain and it stops receiving the same way you can damage a radio, but it doesn't stop the broadcasts. So it's a good way of looking at consciousness. So with major shifts in consciousness that as happens with spiritual awakening, there can be fundamental changes to the physiology of the brain. For the for the person who is experiencing that shift. Why because we have to rewire the radio to receive this new profound consciousness. Sometimes this is dangerous only in very extreme levels. But There are stories that researchers have found not just the stories, but they have studied the individuals, their stories coming out of research of finding people who went through profound experiences of spiritual awakening that wound up with life threatening stuff, because the low level functions in their nervous system stopped working correctly. Sounds dangerous, and it is. It is dangerous to the physical body can be very, very high levels of spiritual awakening deep levels, whatever, however, you want to look at it. Very profound levels of spiritual awakening can come you'll have you know, people who go catatonic for a while unable to speak you know, and it sort of be like, oh, did this person have a stroke? Or did he have you know, something along those lines? And no, they did not. Now, after the brain rewrites itself and shifts, these people are once again, physiologically fine, unable to speak and come out of their catatonic state, unless they die, which also happens sometimes people stay that way, until their body passes away, there are stories of monks who meditate in such a deep state that they go into this quasi death state for years. And, you know, frequently they don't people don't know if they're, if they are dead or alive. And in fact, their you know, their body doesn't really decompose even though they haven't eaten or and you can't really detect their breathing. And, you know, there are these states that we don't really understand yet. These aren't just stories, these are, you know, things people to this day are going through and witness and these aren't just mythologies. And there are, you know, there are researchers that are just beginning to look into these things into these experiences.

So, these are some of the signs of spiritual awakening, fundamental Well being a sense of interconnectedness, a lessening of the ego, big perceptual shifts. Right. There also seems to be a quieting have the net, you know, the narrative background noise of your mind.

The mind loves to chatter. It has this thing called the default mode network that when you aren't focused on something, when you aren't meditating are really, really focused on what you're doing. There's chatter, there's rumination. There's all of these processes. Well, and this is going on with different parts of the brain are just sort of communicating with each other. Hey, what's going on? Oh, yeah, remember this? Oh, yeah. Remember that? Different parts of brain this is called the default mode network. One of the functions of the default mode network is it is self referential, meaning those thoughts those ruminations feel like it feels like who we are. Those thoughts feel like who we are. And so with experiences of spiritual awakening, that default mode network quiets down, first of all. And second of all those narrative thoughts become less attached to self reference. thought arises still, but you don't go oh, that too I am you know, I am that I am that which has the, you know that song going through my head that I can't get out of my head, I am that who has those depressive thoughts that I'm ruminating over those thoughts of worthlessness or being unloved or whatever, there's less identification with that.

To the point where it is more, more profound levels of awakening, it feels like the normal state is no, no inner dialogue. And some people, you know, some people don't really aren't really aware of an inner dialogue or you know, whatever.

But the default mode network becomes less self self referential. It's not about who we are anymore.

So, if you feel like you've gone through a spiritual awakening, what do you do about that? This is a question I've gone through spiritual, what should I do? I don't know. Now, I'm being a little facetious there. You do with it, you do with it what you will, right, you don't have to do anything with it. Or you can work with it to see, to experiment to see how for further along that path you can go. Or you can work to understand it more if an intellectual understanding of awakening is important to you. I have a lot of people, a lot of people contact me interested in understanding their spiritual awakening. Why? Well, because it's a completely novel, new way of being for them

it's a new way of going through the world. And, you know, in the beginning in the, in the, sort of the, the initial levels of awakening, that can be very confusing, you can feel very alone. Although there were plenty of people who have had awakening experiences, and many who have stabilized that to some extent. But we don't always know who those people are.

There aren't necessarily, you know, unless you join a cult or an ashram or something,

aren't necessarily large groups of people having that experience, to kind of hang out with and discuss and it can feel very abnormal, it can feel like you've gone crazy can feel all of these things. You know, particularly when it comes to the mental health breakdown. You know, I went through a psychotic, you know, somebody contacted me very similar through spiritual awakening and resulted in a psychotic break. Well, psychotic break was part of the awakening. The Awakening didn't, you know,

You know, there are lots of people out there who think that everyone should be doing things the way they're doing it. And I don't take that perspective.

As a spiritual teacher, I know that fit the right fit, finding the right teacher, it's incredibly important. You know, you can go attached to any guru out there, just about if you've got enough money, if you've got enough time, if you can, you know, give up everything and go live in a commune or ashram or whatever. They're mu, there are lots of places out there that you can just sort of like sign up. But is that going to be the right path for you? Just because it's the one you found when you signed up for? Maybe maybe not. I like to be very efficient, very efficient with students and say, Look, you know, tell me what you're looking for. Let's talk about it. Let's find out if my teaching style is right for you. And if not, I will reach out to other teachers or find a referral or, you know, tell you what you might be better suited for.

You know, I do I give public classes that anybody can come sign up for I'm giving a free talk at the end of this month as a matter of fact, on spiritual awakening, and anybody can sign up for that. But to study with me directly. You know, there is, you know, when I first started out in shamanism, for example, my teacher had to interview me, like I sat in her office for, I think, three hours. And there was an application before she decided to take me on as a student

you know, and so I don't take everybody's a student. And I also tell people that if you feel for whatever reason that I'm not right for you than that, I'm that I'm not right for you. And, you know, I'm happy to reach out to my network and see if there, if I know of somebody who's better suited, then, you know, I'll reach out. Or I'll refer spirituality, you know, is not a one size fits all kind of pursuit, their thing, things that kind of work for everyone. Meditation works for everyone, but not every type of meditation works for everyone. There are 10s of 1000s, if not more styles, types, processes, procedures for meditation.

You know, is that going to work out for you? I don't know, I don't know the answer to that. Which you know which one.

Sometimes you have to hunt around and find the type, you know, the style of meditation that works for you. I'll do another, I'll do a podcast at some time in the future on meditation.

And talk about the ins and outs of it and that sort of thing. But it does seem to be the you know, as a practice, the one the one thing that leads leads most people into awakening, there are other things and there are people who come to awakening without meditation whatsoever. So, you know, again, there are many, many paths, many paths to the top of the mountain. We're all going to the same mountaintop, but there are many different ways of getting there many different experiences along the way. So with that I will leave you for today. I love you all. I hope you're all doing well and that you're happy and healthy and we will talk soon

Announcer 1:00:41

You have been listening to Speaking Spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshaman.com

EP57 Navigating The Ego in Spiritual Practice

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:47

Hello, hello, everybody.

Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening, wherever and whenever you might be. Today I'm going to talk about one of my favorite topics. That is ego, and the ego and spirituality. And I think there is a lot of misunderstanding around what ego is and its role in your life and its role in spirituality. I have heard spiritual people talk about killing the ego. I've heard spiritual people describe the ego as the devil. Um, as you might imagine, my opinion is a little bit different about that. And I think there is a general misunderstanding about the ego and its role in our lives. What it is, what do we do with it? How do we navigate it? How do we navigate our ego we we have egos. I have an ego when I say that, when I say I, what am I identifying? That's really what ego is. So I'm going to break it down for you. I'm going to talk about, I'm going to give you some ideas about what the ego is, and where it is a trap and where it is useful. And, and all of those things and talk about navigating it in your spiritual practice. And I'm going to give some practical stuff today. I'm going to talk to you about not letting the ego rule your life. Let's get into it. What is ego? Well, you know, there is a Freudian definition of ego. Not going to use that. And there is you know, we often use ego and English colloquially, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that word, right. We use it as a term to refer to somebody's inflated self esteem or inflated sense of self esteem, that guy's got a big ego, check out that ego and that guy, and we actually, without maybe knowing it means the opposite. That person is so insecure, that they have, they're acting like they have an inflated sense of self. So but let's talk about, let's talk about a more useful definition of ego and what we mean about ego in spirituality. So, ego is this ego is a collection of stories and beliefs that you hold about who you are. I'll add one more thing. It's stories, beliefs, and labels about who you are. So when I say I am John, and I realize in other languages in many other languages, they don't say I am, and then their name. But in English, we frequently say I am John, we don't say I am called John. Identifying with that label, I have a name. You know, John Moore, does a label that my parents gave to me when I was born, but that's not who I am. And it's really interesting because I've been, I've been talking about ego and a number of areas. Very recently a number of outlets. So I've got a I did a YouTube and Facebook Live broadcast about ego and I did some stuff on Instagram. And then the algorithm of Facebook, a video came up for me to see of Bob Proctor fantastic spiritual teacher really, really plugged in I love, love his stuff. It might not be for you, it might not be for everybody, but but I have not heard him say anything I disagree with. He uses different terminology for things. That's fine, that's great. And he was talking about this very thing. He said, You know, I have this name, that this is just a label my parents gave me and I have this body. Right. And I don't say, you know, hand is going to work today. I say I am going to work today. And what I mean is this body, but you have a body, you are not the body. But as humans, it's very easy to identify as the body. You know, when somebody passes away in this culture, we say, you know, my grandfather is buried in the cemetery. Well, my grandfather's ashes, the remains of the body that he inhabited are there, but he's not in the cemetery. Not from a who he actually was, or who he is now spiritual perspective, is he in the cemetery. So, ego is about the stories that we tell ourselves who we are in, a lot of them come with labels. So for example, one story that I have about myself is that I am a dad, I have children, I play the role of father to them pretty frequently, hopefully doing the best job that I can. I describe myself as an amateur parent. Um, but that, again, is just a label. And I have not always been a dad. Right, there was a, you know, a long period of time in my life, where before I had children, and right now, I'm not talking to you through this podcast, in the same way that I would talk to my children. So that that that role doesn't necessarily apply in this moment. And again, it's a label, and it's a set of stories, whether or not those stories are true. Right, we have true stories, and not so true stories. What are some of the stories that you tell about yourself, about who you are? Well, there's all kinds of stuff, right? It's, you know, about your identity, you know, I'm, I'm a man, I am a dad, I am a boyfriend, I am a resident of the United States, I am this I am that and there are, you know, sort of labels, and there are stories behind all of those things. And there are beliefs, right? If you believe you are your body, that's just a belief. True or not, right? You can have true beliefs. And you can have false beliefs, I don't mean to put down the idea of a belief. Beliefs are important, as is your ego, and I'm going to get to that, but beliefs are important. But having a flexible belief system, understanding that everything you hold to be true, whether or not it is objectively true or not, is a belief. The the idea of belief is a habit of thought that we think is true. So if I, you know, I am recording this podcast right now, that is a belief that I have. Now, the truth of it is, I probably am. But I don't know, I mean, the equipment that I'm using to record this might not be functioning. Right. You know, there's all kinds of things back that right. And you know, we have all kinds of all kinds of beliefs about the truth of things. One of the things that's really interesting if, you know, it's not certainly not everybody's cup of tea, but if you read things by the author Robert Anton Wilson, he talks about everybody living in A reality tunnel, right, which is a description of the another word for this is the paradigm, the belief that you have about everything, right, and we rarely ever step out of that reality tunnel, we are very locked in. Why because it's easier, it's easier to live our lives with a single set of beliefs. And one of the things he, he advocated was not knowing anything, or not placing the belief that you knew anything. I know, I know, I know was like a dirty word to him a dirty phrase, I know.

And he advocated for this, you know, sort of radical agnosticism where you don't really this is very philosophical, but where you went around and rare you know, had certain beliefs that allowed you to function in the world but but knew that you couldn't truly know anything, this was his, his thing. That everything we experience in this world, comes to us through our filters, through our conditioning, through filters that were set up from the second we were born. Till till now it comes to us, we you know, we have different cultures, we have maybe different languages, we have different bodies that we inhabit, we have, you know, different histories, different schooling. We've read different things, even our memories, which we you know, a lot of people think your memory is just this recording device that plays things back objectively. We no use that term, we believe very strongly based on scientific evidence, that that is not true, that your memories are reconstructed. Which is why if you ask two people about a single incident that they both witnessed, you might get two very different stories. And both of them are remembering. Right, not only do they have different viewpoints, but they're, you know, they're filtering it through their memory. So when you were born, right, when you were born, you may or may not remember that exact moment. But when you were born, you had no reference, right? And the world like nothing was separate from you. This is the closest thing to enlightenment that many of us will ever experience in this lifetime. Although you can certainly become enlightened in a certain lifetime, in a single lifetime. This is the closest thing to enlightenment, to awakened an awakened state of pure formless consciousness. That places no labels on anything you don't you're, you're, you know, pre verbal, you don't have language to start labeling things. And what happens is, immediately your parents or in the other adults in your life, start referring to you by name. They use your name over and over again, and they feed you you have an instinct to survive, which is, you know, you cry when you're hungry. But that's it. And then eventually you learn that, you know, if you respond to your name, you get fed more you get held, you get, you know, whatever. And so you really, Oh, this must be This must be what I am, who I am. And you're told you're a girl, you're a boy, you're whatever, whatever whatever that never ends, you have all of these stories about who you are, and it starts from birth. And you never kind of unless you work on it really hard, you never really go back to that primordial fluid consciousness because learning and conditioning does that to us. And this is not to say learning and conditioning is bad or evil or the devil or whatever. So. So this is essentially what ego is, it is the you know, simplify it. It is the collection of stories that we hold about who we are. You know, when I say I come from a history of trauma. You know, I grew up with childhood trauma. That's a story. Right? Whether that's true or not, whether that's objectively true or not, that's a story that's part of my identity. It's part of, you know, how I define myself, sometimes it's how I think about myself. So why, why would we have an ego? Why is it? You know, why is this a thing that we've developed? Does it serve us? Well, it must. I mean, that's a belief, but it must serve us somehow. Because otherwise, you know, human beings would have died out. If we, if, you know, having an ego wasn't, didn't serve some purpose. Not only that, let's talk about the spiritual purpose of, of ego and that sort of thing. So one of the things that ego does one of the functions of ego, and I'm talking about ego, like it's a thing now, but ego is a bunch of stuff. It's a series of processes, but it's much easier to talk about it if we lump it in and create a thing out of it. But it's not a thing. It's not, you know, it's it's a, what do you call those, going back to my grammar school days, you know, the, the, it's an abstract noun, right? You can't put ego in a wheelbarrow, or a bucket. So it's an abstract noun, but it's really fluid into collection of things. And your egos is very fluid. For most people. There's some people are really, really locked in. But over time, your ideas about yourself have changed. Think about yourself when you were 13. Think about yourself when you were 18. You know, I don't know how old you are. But I'm 51. Now, I mean, very different person have a very different self concept. I have a lot of more stories now about myself than I did when I was 18 or 13. So your ego changes over time. Right? It's very, very fluid. We don't necessarily think it is. Let's talk about spiritual reality for a minute. And I'm going to use a very, I'm going to use a very specific model. And I'm going to use the word source instead of God or the universe or whatever. If you want to replace that in your mind with the word God with salt when I use source, fine, that's great. I find the word God has a lot of baggage with it. Like, again, people have a lot of ideas, a lot of stories about who or what God is, and some people don't believe in God. And, you know, it's okay, whatever you believe is totally fine. But I'm gonna talk about cosmology a little bit in why ego is spiritual, and it is part of our spiritual development and where does it come from? Okay, and this is one model one perspective, you cannot, words don't adequately describe spiritual reality. So whatever I'm describing to you is just a close approximation of anything, or, I don't know, maybe not so close. And you might have a completely different viewpoint. And I respect that. I am certainly not a you know, fundamentalist of any kind. You you believe in what you believe. But let's, you know, let's go back a minute, let's talk about the origin of everything. So imagine, you know, back before the Big Bang back before, time and space existed, there was a being, but that being was just pure formless consciousness, and we'll call that source, okay. You might call it God, or the intelligence of the universe or whatever, but it is a field of pure consciousness in which nothing exists. Right? So, experience can't really arise in this consciousness. This consciousness is just existence. It's like a it's like a big empty field. And so source or God or whatever does whatever it does. In order to have experience arise in order to explore itself, what would you do? What would you do if you wanted to really explore yourself, you might have to step outside yourself, you might have to ask your friends what you are like you might video or audio record yourself, right, you would have to do some things, really to explore yourself, you can do some level of self exploration, by scanning your body or you know, whatever, but to really, really explore yourself, you've got to kind of get outside of yourself. Well, if you're all there is, what do you need to do.

And I find that one sort of metaphor for source is you think of an infinite beam of white light, right, like a solid beam of white light, in infinite brilliance and infinite length, and, you know, whatever. And if it were passing through the void of space, for example, in space isn't really empty, there's, you know, there's energy, there's all kinds of stuff, you know, cosmic dust and all this stuff. But let's say we're passing through this vacuum of space where there's absolutely nothing, you would see no light. You know, if you shine a flashlight, and there's not dust in the air, you don't see the beam of that flashlight, you only see the flashlight reflected off a wall or surface or whatever. Or there's particles of dust in the air, and you can see the beam, but you don't see the light until it reflects back to you. So this infinite beam of white light can't really see itself, it can't really experience itself. And so what it does is it has to set up limitations, barriers, things for it to bounce off of. And it does that in a couple of ways. One is it splits itself off. So we take that beam of white light, and we put a prism in front of it, right might have done this in school. And it splits that beam of white light that contains all other frequencies of light into a rainbow. Wow. Right. But that rainbow has basically infinite diversity. Which is what we are, what everything in the universe is, you know, as close as we can approximate it infinite diversity in the universe, people are really, really different. But we're also you know, we live on a planet, I can look in my backyard and see, you know, 12 different species of trees. And I know there's going to be dozens of species of fungus growing under the earth and animals and birds and you know, if I go a few miles away, the ecosystem is going to be completely different. Diversity is an observable quality of source, okay. So source or God or whatever, splits itself off and there are models, there are other you know, their spiritual models that talk about this right? The Tree of Life in Kabbalah talks about this, the first thing is just this infinite field of light, the iron soft or and then, you know, intelligence says, you know, let's create reality. Consciousness says let's create reality, and splits itself off in you know, descends down the tree of life, until it gets to physical reality down here. So, this prism happens and then these obstacles up here, right? It sets up source sets up the illusion of individual obstacles. So consciousness can bounce off of those, like light and reflect back. So you, my friend, are undifferentiated. You know, you're differentiated in that you experience a separate identity. This is where ego comes in. But you are connected to source in the same way that everything else is. If you want to describe it. In quantum terms, we are quantum entangled with everything in the universe. Right, scientifically, before the Big Bang there Was this particle, this infinitesimally small particle, smaller than an atom, I guess, that exploded into the entire known universe. They can't even imagine, you know, that created first there was, you know, it split itself out into nothing but hydrogen and then, you know, the hydrogen started grouping together and forming clumps, and then those clumps formed, you know, got denser and denser and denser and formed stars. And then the stars got denser and denser, denser till some of them started forming. Are there elements, right, everything, all of the elements in your body, say for hydrogen. But even the hydrogen in your body at one point was in the belly of a star, all of the carbon, all the stars were the furnaces of creation that created the physical elements that our physical universe is made out of, is pretty amazing.

So, source differentiates itself to have experience. And we are at our core underneath this identity with the body, the our identity with our thoughts, identity with our labels, if we parse through all of that, what we are is a field of consciousness, in which experience arises the experience of having a body, the experience of our thoughts, the experience of the sensations we have, you know, you're hearing my voice right now. Which is, I realize it's an everyday thing, but it is an absolute miracle if you think about it, think about it for a moment I am using muscles in my throat and air for my lungs and making the air in front of my mouth vibrate or you know, inside my throat but coming out of my mouth, the air is vibrating there is a microphone in front of me that converts those vibrations into an electronic signal that goes into a computer that converts that electronic signal into ones and zeros there is nothing else just ones and zeros. Now, you have a computer or a phone or you know whatever but some device some computing device that converts those ones and zeros back to an audible signal something you can hear right so converts that back to an electronic symbol signal. And whether you're listening through headphones or speaker or whatever, there is you know some electronics in there that vibrate the air those vibrations strike your eardrum or eardrums and cause you know nerves to fire in your ear. They go into your brain and what happens is you have this subjective experience of listening to me talk that subjective experience happens inside the field of your consciousness. And that is a beautiful thing to me. The fact that I can you know have some beams of light strike the back of my eyes and I experienced a sunset or you know, my daughter can come up and put her arms around me and electrical signals from my skin and muscles and body give you know out of that out of those electrical signals which are very close to being ones and zeros right because neurons either fire or they don't I have this subjective experience of getting a hug. That's a miracle to me

wow what powerful beings we are Are because what whether you're doing it consciously or not, you are creating everything you experience. This is not to say, there isn't a reality outside of you somewhere. But your experience of that reality is created inside your consciousness. And you know, very well how your consciousness how your state of mind or your emotional state, how tired you are, how, you know, whatever, you know how that can change your experience of things, right, you know, that you're affecting the experience that's arising, whether you're doing that consciously on purpose or not. So if I'm really well, I'll tell you a personal story. I was going through processing, some processing some family trauma. And, um, you know, I was dating somebody who was also processing some family trauma at the time. And she said to me, imagine if we had had normal families. And you know, I had been in this state of mind, we're very, you know, lots of ruminations and depressed and all of these things. And it changed, like my consciousness in an instant changed. And I started laughing uncontrollably laughing so hard tears were running down my face, my stomach was hurting, I was having a hard time breathing, you know, red in the face, ugly, crying, laughing. Right. If I had been in another state, my experience, you know, receiving that information, imagine if our families had been normal. Wouldn't have we reacted the same way it wouldn't have had the same subjective experience of exactly the same data. Misses consciousness. But this is also why ego is useful. Because it allows us to have different experiences. Right, it allows us to play with being depressed or being joyous or being whatever. Now we, we. So I'll get into some of the traps of ego, some of the problems of ego and talk about what what we might do about it, if we decide that it's a problem. What are effective strategies for managing our egos and spiritual practice? How do you develop a healthy relationship with your ego? And how does ego affect your spiritual growth and development? So, the Buddha in his four noble truths, talks about suffering, that there is suffering, which is the cause of suffering is way out of suffering. And suffering is in this model, the result of attachment. Right? Attachment, one of the truths of Buddhism, but of you know, just subjective, you know, subjective objective experience is that everything is impermanent. Nothing lasts forever, everything changes. Everything is in a constant state of change. So our attachment to things that are impermanent and in a flux puts us sometimes in a state of suffering. Let me give you a personal example of that. My daughters have twin daughters, they just turned 16. One of my daughter's has her driver's license, the others will have hers very soon. There they have become independent young women. They have both been dating. They both have jobs. And I'm like, oh, man, I miss the days when they were nine years old. And we used to hang out all the time. And, you know, even in the winter, we'd go walk on the beach. And you know, we would spend so much time together. And we were so so close, because, you know, when they were young, when they were little, their, their mom traveled on business quite a lot. So they spent they spent a lot of their time just with me. And I love my daughters. And I love that they're growing up, and they've become wonderful, caring, compassionate, loving people. By God, I'm like thinking back, oh, my goodness, when they were nine, how wonderful was only when they were five, how wonderful it was. And I look at pictures of us. And there's a picture of us standing in a waterfall together, that is one of my favorites. It was a joyous, a joyous day, lots of laughter. But I can look back at that, and mourn or grieve the loss of that time, but it was inevitable that that was going to change. Nobody stays nine years old forever. That relationship has to change, I could, you know, fight to hold my kids back and be strict and not let them explore the world and all of this stuff. But I'd be fooling myself and trying to be attached to that experience. So to the extent to which I am attached to that memory, that experience, there is suffering. Right, in the same thing, so I have this body. And I think back to you know, when I was in college, it was in my late teens, early 20s. And I went to the gym every single day, and I did karate five days a week, and I could eat anything I wanted. As much as I wanted, I would go to the cafeteria at school and get three dinners and then you know, have five glasses of milk and dessert and never put an ounce on. And I was muscular and thin and my waist size was significantly smaller. You know, this body changes, I have white hair in my beard now. In other places I won't talk about but I have white hair and my beard. If I grow my beard out, it's very white, that your body changes constantly over time. You don't even have to try too hard. There's just an aging process. There are lots of people out there that are trying to work on stuff to make people physically immortal. Can you imagine a world where babies are still being born and nobody ever dies? How quickly would we run out of natural resources and this would become this would become a living hell.

So this body changes and and if I'm attached to it too much, eventually I know this body mind will die. Right? If I worry about that I can cause lots of suffering my attachment to this quote unquote life that is just my identification with this body, this mind these beliefs these perceptions that causes suffering.

Now how do we navigate this? Right? So we are very most of us attached to our egos. We are attached to our stories about who we are. We're attached to our labels were attached to our bodies were attached to our belief systems, all of those things were very attached to those things. And it does cause suffering. Right. If you're attached to who you are, and I insult you, or I invalidate you or you know you know all of those things that people do to be nasty sometimes. That can cause suffering can cause a fight. It can cause you know, all kinds of stuff that leads us astray because we're really, really attached. And I remember my daughter, one of my daughter's coming home from school, elementary school, and she was really angry. And I said, you know, What's got you so, let's get you in a huff. Why are you so angry? So and so called me stupid. And I said, Okay, I said, let me ask you a question. She said, Yeah. I said, Are you a chair? And she kind of giggled. Like, I'm not a chair. I'm like, so if I call you a chair, and I say, You're a chair, Sophia. Are you gonna be upset by that? Say, No, that's, you know, that's silly. And they said, Are you stupid? Said No, I'm not stupid. I said, so why are you gonna get upset? When somebody calls you stupid. Right? It's only if you identify with that. It's only if you cling to that identity that somebody is trying to foist onto you. That it causes suffering. Right, our need to be perceived in a certain way our need to self perceive in a certain way. Right. When I don't live up to my own expectations, sometimes that causes suffering and then I have to remind myself, John, I say, referring to my label. You are part of source you are connected via divine spark to infinite consciousness. You are part of the vastness of the universe, part of all there is and your consciousness is a miracle. So give yourself a break, cut yourself some slack. So let's talk about how to navigate ego in spiritual practice. Because there are traps in spiritual practice. There are lots of traps in spiritual practice I've talked about some of them in other podcasts have talked about spiritual bypassing and spiritual egotism, which I'll talk about again now. There is this tendency for some people to simply shift to their ego. Too, say something more spiritual, right. And this is not to say, you know, I identify as a spiritual teacher I identify myself as a person who practices and teaches shamanism. I identify myself as somebody who teaches meditation and spirituality. You know, that is a part of my ego complex but the trap for me would be if I thought I am that makes me special. That makes me better than that makes me you know, think I have transcended my ego Oh, well, I teach spirituality. I no longer have an ego No, sorry, doesn't work that way. I am beyond ego. No, it doesn't work that way.

The Buddha while he was alive, still out of body, still talk to people still referred to himself. You can't do that without some level of ego. So one of the spiritual traps is spiritual egotism, where we just replace our identity with something that we think is more spiritual or at a higher level or lots of stuff about ascension these days. And five d i have no idea what not to put that down. If that's a practice you're doing or something. I don't really know what it means. I don't know you know, But I've talked to people who are ascended or ascending or you know, whatever, and I don't, you know, that's cool, that's great. Don't let it go to your head. Don't let awakening go to your head. Don't let enlightenment go to your head, I think I'm gonna put that on the t shirt. Don't let enlightenment go to your head. It's not about your head. It's not about having an inflated self concept.

You know, I had a client a couple of weeks ago. And I'm super, super careful about not sharing any personal details of clients. So I'm going to talk in a very generalized manner about this person. So this client, this client is in Europe, I have clients all over the world. This client happened to be in Europe and had worked with another. He referred to this person as a shaman. I call myself a shamanic practitioner. In my practice, in my teaching in my school, one does not call oneself a shaman, because it's considered egocentric. It's one way that we try to prevent the spiritual egotism, by slapping a fancy label on ourselves. But he referred to me as his shaman, and that's fine, whatever. But I got on zoom with him. And he's like, in the beginning, he was like, Oh, I'm an all that I'm meeting with you. And yeah, the idea. And I'm like, okay, you know, no, I'm just a guy. And I have some experiences, I have some skills that I'm going to share with you. You do not bow down to me. I'm not a guru. I'm not a god. Well, we're all you know, we're all part of God. We're all little gods. We're all demigods in our own way. But I'm not any more than he is. I don't want all like that. Why? Well, one thing is, I think it's an I think it's unhealthy. If you're the person on the other side, if you're my client, that's not how I work with clients. But also, it's unhealthy for me, like if I start buying into that bullshit, right? Pardon my French, if I start buying into that, you must be in awe of me when I talk to you know, I, you know, I do like a certain amount of social respect. But I think that's common. I like to have the same amount of kindness that I show to my clients, you know, but you know, I also tell my clients if during a session, emotions come up for you, and you feel like yelling at me and calling me names. Fantastic, do that. But I don't want you and I don't do that with my students either. So there are a few traps with students that I try to avoid. One of those things so I teach people, one of the things I teach people how to do is how to do a shamanic journey, and how to get answers from spirit for their spiritual questions. And there's the temptation to ask the teacher to interpret your journeys for you. And I don't do that. Like I don't journey on your behalf and they don't interpret your journeys. I lead you through experiences. My whole point is to empower you to get your own answers. Shamanism is a spiritual system that is all about personal revelation, individual revelation. There's no doctrine or dogma, in shamanism where there's very little dogma. But it is all about getting one's own answers and your answers are as valid as mine. Just because I've been doing this longer than you or have some things to teach you. Doesn't make my answers better than yours. Right. So you know, I don't I tell my Students, I'm a guide, not a guru, I'm here to lead you to have some experiences. I know how to take you to places to have experiences, I know how to sort of sequence the experiences that you could have, and like a tour guide, right? You know, if I go to, I don't know, where's the, where's the place that has a king of England if I go to England, and I hire a tour guide, to show me around London. You know, so I can experience London, and learn about it and have all those things that tour guides, not the king you know, I'm going to show that tour guide. Respect and, and, you know, as a human being, but, you know, and they and I know, that they've, you know, lived in London and studied London and have more experience and knowledge about London than I do. But I'm not going to go into you know, I'm not gonna go into a pub, and order fish and chips and eat them and ask the tour guide did I like that? Right. That's the kind of the same thing about getting answers from spiritual teachers. I mean, yes, answers about practice, but not deep spiritual answers. And my particular bent of shamanism, I am personally focused on mysticism, which is about merging your consciousness with source. So what do we do? What do we do? You're some you know, you're in spirit, you have spiritual practice. Maybe you meditate, maybe you practice shamanism, maybe you do something else, you pray. What do we do about the ego getting in the way of that? Well, first, the first step is to recognize that you have an ego and understand what it is. Right? And I've just described that to you, it's a set of stories about who you are, but who you who you are at your core is nothing to do with your ego. You just you You are consciousness, you experience the ego. Understand that you are not your body, anything that you have. You cannot be I have a body, I have a name. I have roles that I play out, as you know. I have thoughts, I am not my thoughts. There is a part of the brain called the default mode network is not a part it's actually a bunch of parts of the brain that work together, called the default mode network. And when you are not in meditation is one of the things that takes this offline a little bit. But when you are when your mind is wandering, which is most of the day, believe it or not really hard to focus all day long. But when your mind is wandering, and you have all these thoughts come up and ruminations and all of this stuff. That's the default mode, network processing things. And part of the default mode networks job is to figure out who you are. Right? And so all of these thoughts that you're having, feel like they are you have these ruminations, all of these beliefs, all of the stuff that's coming up, it feels like it's coming, first of all, that it's coming from you. And secondly, you're you know, feeling like your thoughts are you at least to some extent. And, and, and it's just static. It's like picking up a radio station. And thinking that there's somebody inside the radio talking to you you know, your brains picking things up. But that's not where you live. That's not you, right. The brain think of the brain as a receiver of consciousness much like the radio receiving signal holes. And yeah, if you take, if you mess with the brain, it can mess up those signals Absolutely, or mess up the processing of those signals. But subjective consciousness cannot be reduced to brain activity. And that's an it's an interesting problem for science to call it the consciousness problem. And there are lots of people studying it. And there are people who will say, Oh, we've located consciousness in the brain.

No, we haven't. But yes, if I take the brain apart, it will stop receiving the signal of consciousness, but consciousness never goes away. Because it's all all there is. It's the background in which all experience arises. Not to go down, you know, too far down the metaphysical pathway. But you know, this is a spiritual podcast, we're talking about spiritual things. We can talk about metaphysics. So understand that you have an ego understand what it is that it's just stories you tell about yourself, understand that it's sometimes useful. When this body mind needs to interact with my children, taking on the identity of dad is useful. But attachment to any part of that, or the whole thing, or whatever, that's the problem. Thinking that's who I really am at my core, that's the problem that takes us away from our spiritual reality. It's not a problem, it's just a thing to understand. And you can have glimpses of awakening, you can have moments of non dual experience. Many of us have this very frequently. And you can be in a persistent state of, there's a scientific term for it, it's actually like persistent non symbolic experience or something like that. But there is, you know, there's a there are ways you can experience non duality, but that doesn't mean your body and mind stop operating. And this is a lie that the ego, the ego is there for the body survival, right? In part, one of its roles is to keep the body alive by saying, oh, you know, there's a threat to your body, this is an existential threat. If something kills your body, you die. Right, so that's one of the you know, the body doesn't stop existing, when you have persistent, non symbolic non dual experience. When you live from that state of non duality, this identity, this ego doesn't go away, it just kind of moves to the background, in my normal state of consciousness is one of non separation. And it's blissful, right non duality is blissful. Because there, it releases the suffering of attachment to ego. And that is the the most the closest attachment you can have is attachment to your self identity. So when we identify with things that we are not, or we identify with things that we have, you know, you probably you're not like, I remember when I was a kid, and sneakers were a big deal. Right? The brand of sneakers that you owned, were a big deal. And I grew up in a family, we didn't have a lot of money, you know, in a really salon and people say that, um, you know, we weren't, we weren't the poorest people around but we didn't, you know, I wore secondhand clothes, my mom sewed patches into my pants and I don't know that I, you know, maybe on Christmas and a birthday, I might get new, you know, a new shirt and new socks and stuff. But mostly I got hand me downs from older, my older brother and older cousins and you know, you know, there were feast and famine times anyway. So anyway, that's the way I grew up. But my aunt I worked in a shoe factory and was able to buy at certain times of the year I was able to buy shoes basically at cost. So my mom or somebody gave my aunt a little bit of money, maybe $10 which was, you know, still significant those days. And I got a pair of Reeboks because she was sewing, you know, insoles in the shoes or something. I got a pair of Reeboks boy did I love those shoes. And I remember wearing them out and somebody saying hey, Reebok, right, like calling me the name of the brand of my shoes. And what I'm getting at is I'm not a pair of Reeboks, and those Reeboks you know we're, you know, kids Reeboks, I couldn't wear them today. What if I identified as my shoes, I mean, that seems silly, right? Or identify with your car. And you might have an attachment to your car, you might love your car. Some people have cars, they're really really into cars, and they love them. You know, some people identify with the car, some people identify with their house, some people identify with their job. These are things you have they're impermanent. It gives you this sort of spiritual, what I call spiritual schizophrenia, this break from reality. This that affects your identity, affects your personality affects your mood. So, meditation is a great practice, I highly recommend it. Certain types of meditation, such as mindfulness, help to disrupt the identification patterns of the default mode network, we've got brain scanning research about this. So this is, you know, this is why meditation has been practiced forever. And people use it to come to spiritual awakening and spiritual realization. So we do that we meditate. Know that you have an ego. Anytime you find yourself over identifying with anything that isn't you just remind yourself I have a name. I'm not my name. I am you know, I have a body. I am not my body. I have thoughts. I am not my thoughts. Emotions, I am not my emotions. I have sensations, I am not my sensations, right? So we start to dis identify or detach from the ego. And again, the spiritual trap is just replacing that with a different set of stories about yourself. I am a 15th level Ascended Master. I live on a cloud. I shoot laser beams out of my fingertips. I don't know. I don't mean to, you know, I am I am joking. I'm not making fun of anybody's particular system. I don't know enough about them to do that. But what I what I do see a lot is this

this lack of humility, which underlies a lack of understanding about who you really are. If you knew who you really were at an experiential level, that you are an infinite, undying, unborn being that is beyond time and space that is interconnected with everything in this universe that is a part of source that carries a divine spark. You are part of God you are part of source you're part of the universe. You would have real self esteem. You would have real self esteem. Maybe I'll do a whole podcast on spirituality and self esteem. Anyway, I have been talking for longer than an hour. I am going to wrap this up. I hope you are happy and healthy. I hope this has been very interesting information for you. And I will talk to you very soon

Announcer 1:05:19

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshaman.com

EP56 Exploring Esoteric and Exoteric Spiriuality

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:49

Hello, everybody. Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon.

Hang on to your hats. Were talking about esoteric and exoteric spirituality in this episode. Why? Because they're cool. But also because I don't know, these are Greek terms that can be sometimes confusing. And so I'm gonna talk about the differences. And not that I'm, I'm not here to prescribe anything to anybody. As somebody who practices esoteric spirituality, myself, I'm not saying that's the right path for you. Do what you will. But if you have some information, you can make some informed choices, right? So let's talk about the difference. First of all, when I'm talking about esoteric, that is spelled e s, and when I'm talking exoteric, that spelled e x, they are Greek words, basically, meaning in our teachings, so meaning inner, and so meaning outer. So things that are exotic or foreign or outside of our experience, things that are, you know, exoplanet planets, or planets outside of our solar system, and et cetera, you get the picture. So generally speaking, in spirituality in some, I'm going to talk a little bit about organized religion, just because some of the easiest examples to understand, come from organized religion. However, I do understand that there's a large the law, in fact, the largest growing population in the US and many other countries is people who identify as spiritual but not religious people who aren't practicing organized religion, but are still spiritual. And wherever you find yourself, that's totally fine. But sometimes, it's just easier to point out some examples this way. But I'll also talk about I'll talk about what it might mean if you are spiritual but not religious. So generally speaking, historically, anyway, when we're talking about exoteric spirituality, we're talking about a church or you know, an organized religion, what are their outer teachings? What are the things that they're teaching to the masses? What are the practices, right? So if you were Catholic, for example, you would go to Mass you would practice mass you would do, you know, take communion, you would do confession, you would do all of these things part of the exoteric part of every day, church spiritual life exoteric with an x. Now, one might think there aren't hidden teachings in Christianity, there's no esoteric Christianity, but that is not true at all. There are lots of forms of esoteric In fact, in in all of the major religions of the world, not just the Western ones, but in all of the major religions of the world you find both exoteric and esoteric practices. So there are lots of Christian orders. There's some Catholic orders that have hidden inner teachings and inner practices. You find mystics gonna talk about mysticism, mysticism isn't always esoteric, from an organized religion perspective, but those things do kind of go hand in hand. So one of the you know, one of the characteristics, we'll talk about some common characteristics. Now common doesn't mean universal. Right? So if I say that esoteric practice usually involves some sort of initiation initiatory practice, he's a well, you know, the, you know, the Sufi school in, and I don't know if this is true or not, but the Sufi school in Islam doesn't have initiation. Like I said, it's common, it's not universal Sufis are do have esoteric practices, right, that is an esoteric form of Islam. In Judaism, you have the practices, practices and teachings associated with curbline. I know there. Now there's a lot of that out in the public a lot of stuff that was esoteric, hidden away, and occult, and we'll talk about the word occult as well is, in this age of information is available, is out there. You can, you know, take online courses and Cobla now that it was unheard of, until very recently, you the only way to learn would be to learn one on one from a teacher. In fact, the word my understanding of the word Kala in from in Hebrew, comes from the word like to, to whisper or to babble, meaning like its word, mouth to ear kind of teaching. So there's a lot of that there's a lot of an esoteric teaching, hidden stuff, because not a lot was written down. And so there are a lot of esoteric traditions that died out because they were either repressed or they just didn't have enough people to pass teachings on to. So in pagan Rome, for example, during around the time that, you know, just prior to the time that Christianity formed, you know, so a couple 100 years, BC, to a few 100 years ad, there was the cult of Mithras and mithraic. Religion, and we don't know very much about it, because they didn't write it down. But what we do know is that there were mithraic temples, which were underground, literally underground, hidden. Secret, we knew they were initiatory practices. There were at least three levels of initiation. I believe it was mostly open to men, but there may have been mithraic. temples that accepted women as well, there were feasts involved and rituals. And so it was very, it was esoteric, there were a lot of esoteric cults in the cult of Mithras was popular and seen actually as competition for Christianity during this time, because it was ongoing, and because of the number of myth mithraic temples found and found everywhere found you the UK, Europe, and lots of these have been dug up by archaeologists. And they can postulate that it was really popular, and that it was particularly popular with military people because they were located near where the Roman military was stationed. So not really, as much near sort of civilian populations. So popular with military people and, you know, involved the worship of Mithras and Sol and you know, they know a few things just because of the artwork found inside these mithraic temples. But the actual practices are, have been difficult to decipher so far, because they didn't write anything down. So very typically, esoteric practices are not written down. Again, not universal, common, right, because you can find books of Qabalah that are quite that are old, not ancient. Because the first ones written were written in, I think of the Middle Ages. So we don't have ancient Kabbalistic scrolls that I'm aware of. And the Middle Ages might seem old seems old to me, but in the scope of humanity not that old. So some things that are common in esoteric practices one there, there's usually a selection process or an or initiation, which has to do with the person passing the tradition on determining if the candidate is worthy or ready to receive the teachings. So we see this with things like Freemasonry, right? Freemasonry is ostensibly Christian.

And as esoteric and hidden, you have to be initiated into the practice, you have to be, you know, voted in and selected. And although many, many, many books have been written about Freemasonry and outlining the rituals, and there have been videos done, showing the rituals and things like that, it's actually part of the oath is that you swear never to write anything down. And that would reveal the secrets. But again, in this information, age, everything is available, pretty much. I'm sure there are. I'm sure there are lots of things out there that are not available. There are still probably oral traditions out there. that haven't been written down. But there are a lot of things in the Western world. And particularly, we are fond of writing and printing things and putting things on the internet. So there may be this idea that esoteric practice is better or higher level or getting to give you spiritual power, etc, etc. And, you know, I'm not going to be disingenuous, and say, none of that is true, it's all the same. But that doesn't mean, you know, you're going to be you know, seeking out esoteric practices to gain power, or that sort of thing is sort of the wrong motivation. Right. First of all, any, any initiation, any real initiation, any real spiritual initiation is going to be a minor death of sorts, meaning you're going to have to give up some old ways of thinking of doing things, whatever. So it's not for everyone. Right. I mean, even in exoteric practices, right, if you were to join a church that you hadn't belonged to before, they might have a certain code of conduct if you converted, pardon me, if you converted to Judaism, you converted to Islam, you would have to give up, you know, if you hadn't been living that way, you would have to give up some ways of living, for example, and decide that, that, whether that worked for you or not, if you join certain religious orders, you might be expected to be celibate, for example, though, I'm not sure how that works out in reality, I don't, I don't know that. There's a whole lot of that there's a whole lot of celibate orders that seem to have a lot of sexual abuse and stuff like that. So anyway, I'm being initiated into some sort of order or whatever, you know, puts a lot of expectation on you. It's an obligation. It's an, you know, frequently you're taking oaths, and in my take, oath should never be taken lightly, particularly spiritual oaths. Right? It is a contract of sorts, but it's a contract sound like a contract with the devil. You're not selling your soul to the devil. But it's a karmic contract, saying, I'm going to live out these certain principles. I'm going to do these certain things.

And if you don't, sometimes there are karmic repercussions for that. You sometimes the universe is like, Oh, well, I'm going to show you that. You

entered into something which was presented to you as life and death serious and you did not take it Life and Death seriously. And so here's an important lesson for you to learn. So, you know, don't go into esoteric spirituality lightly, particularly anything that's organized. So there's, there's also just like with any form of spirituality, there's organized esoteric spirituality, right, you can join the Freemasons, you can join, you know, certain orders, monastic orders and all kinds of things. You can receive initiations, you can receive transmissions, you can in, in, in Eastern religions, so Hinduism, Buddhism, things like that, there are now there you can get all kinds of transmissions from gurus, right, you can get things that used to only be open to mics, you can get all kinds of transmissions. But you, you know, so for if you're a, you know, if you're Buddhist, you want to go receive the, you know, some transmission of some Tibetan deity or something, you have to have taken certain vows certain, you know, taking the vows of refuge, for example, that's an expectation. And, you know, you're not to say, like, lightning is going to strike you down or something, but you're not going to get what you're after, by just going and getting a transmission, if you're not taking it seriously. So that's another aspect of esoteric practice it takes to get anything out of it takes a significant amount of dedication, practice, and, and faith for lack of a better term, right? If you just, you know, let's say, take the refuge vows in Buddhism, I take refuge in the Dharma, I take refuge in the Sangha, I take refuge in the Buddha, is just like, throw that out there and you don't really mean it. Well, none of the other stuff you do is going to do anything for you. It makes no sense. Unless you're serious about that, unless you align yourself to that. So there's an alignment in esoteric practice as well. So there's organized esoteric practice and then there is sort of mysticism and mysticism is about more solitary, there are mystical orders, but mystical work is usually solitary because it is about individual absorption, identification with the divine. And you have mystics in every form of spirituality. So when I read something, an interview with somebody who is a Sufi dancer, if you've seen what they call the, I don't know if this term is used or not, but the Whirling Dervishes, right, that the Sufi dancers that spin in circles, really beautiful, actually to watch, they wear these outfits and they spin around and you can tell they're entering a state, an ecstatic state. And this is another Greek term IX stasis orcs. I don't know how you pronounce it in Greek, but it's stasis word, the word ecstasy from and ecstasy, not just talking about the way that we normally use it in English to refer to like, sexual ecstasy, but meaning entering this altered state where the personality sort of dissolves. But I was reading this interview and somebody asked about, you know, the Sufi dancer what it was like, and his experience of doing that whirling was like he was being held and spun by angels that were in the room. So he was no longer doing it that the spirit was doing the motion for him was moving him. Which to me as a shamanic practitioner, somebody who teaches and practices shamanism. We have very similar practices in shamanism where we merge with helping spirits and dance are merged with helping spirits and move merge with helping spirits and channel and talk and that sort of thing. So it's like we allow the body to become a vessel. And there's an expression in shamanism called becoming the hollow bone. If you think about a bone that is hollow, it's, you know, it's cleared out of any junk that might be in the middle. And it becomes a clear channel for spirit to move through. And that's, you know, that's what shamans do strive to become strive to become the hollobone, we do our self work

to clear out the junk that prevents us. And the junk is basically shadow material, ego, material, all kinds of stuff. So, there are mystical aspects in every form of spirituality as well. So shamanism, for example, is mystical, because it does involve, you know, the merging of the ego, or the identity, not the ego, but the merging of the identity with the divine sometimes. And it's also esoteric, because there are practices that are only available to people who are kind of initiated. Although I've certainly I've read things. I've read things in books about shamanism that I think I sort of wish. I wish people hadn't written down. So there are some really, really advanced practices that some people have written out. And my concern, not that, you know, we need to hold things back from people like that. But people will practice stuff that they're not ready for yet. And two things can happen when we do this. So, you know, like, right now you can go online and download a book on evoking demons. Right. And I can't tell you whether that's a good thing to do, or a bad thing to do. But historically, if you were going to do something like that, you would have gone through years of apprenticeship with, you know, some teacher, and you had done all kinds of work prayers and meditations in preparation for that work. Now, people are like, just let me get to the demons. No personal preparation, no personal work. So the same thing is true with shamanism, you have to do your own work, you have to work to become that hollow bone. And then you get to the esoteric practices, which so the challenge is that, a if you haven't done your personal work, this stuff is not going to work for you at all. Right? It's sort of like, I want to run, I want to run a marathon. But I'm not going to train for it. I'm just gonna go out and run a marathon tomorrow. One of two things can happen here. A, I will fail miserably. That will, that will definitely happen. But to depending on how hard I try, I might actually hurt myself. And that's a definite possibility as well. So it's the same thing with esoteric practices. There's usually a building up there's usually, which is why a lot of a lot of initiatory systems Slyke, Freemasonry and some others. Although a lot of the esoteric teaching, in my experience has been removed from Freemasonry, like there's a lot of stuff, talks about symbols and things like that. But there's not a lot of practical teaching in Masonic lodges. But we'll take something like the Golden Dawn if you're not familiar, the Golden Dawn was a magical body, a Christian magical body, not overtly Christian, not like a church but based on Judeo Christian stuff and loosely based on Freemasonry and they had, you know, there there are the original body closed, but there are now organizations teaching their systems of magic so it's very esoteric and it's initiatory. And, well, you could go in down their entire corpus of material. And practice, try to try to practice some of the advanced stuff. They're really caught there, like you have to go through, you know, at level one or whatever it's called, you've got to go through a year of training, where you do work every single day, preparatory work, you do meditations, you do rituals, you have to, you know, learn the Hebrew alphabet, you have to learn all of this stuff before you initiate to the next level. And then there's a bunch of stuff before you're gonna shave to the next level. But you could right now go online, probably download the highest level of Golden Dawn ritual and attempt to do some of the ritual, and it won't work for you. Why? Because you haven't done any of the preparatory work. You're going out and trying to run a marathon and you haven't trained for it. And you might hurt yourself spiritually, physically, mentally. And there are there are cases that I've seen of people

you know, people going, there's talk about like Kundalini sickness where people raise the Kundalini in their body without, without proper preparation, and essentially going insane. Right, and I don't, I don't know the truth of that. But I have seen, I've experienced people who were practicing things they should not have been practicing and winding up in rough shape mentally. They're opening doors without the muscular strength. Like if I went in, I tried to benchpress 500 pounds today. And I had somebody helped me lift, you know, a couple of people helped me lift the weight off the rack and then let go of it. I would hurt myself would probably kill myself, I don't know. 500 pound bar coming crashing down on the center of my chest. probably hurt myself. But people don't think about that stuff spiritually. Like, yeah, I can do anything. It's just spirituality. But here's the thing. You have an energy body that closely matches your physical body. This is what acupuncturist and energy healers work on. And there's some shamanic practices that work at the level of your energy body. And, you know, it has pathways, some, you know, called channels. Again, acupuncture, works on these channels, meridians, whatever you want to call them, recognized by a lot of esoteric systems, even energetic anatomy, you can overload that if you're not prepared. Just why systems of yoga are, tend to be gradual.

Because there's a tremendous amount of preparatory work, you have to, you know, prepare your energy system. Now, people in the West, a lot of a lot of people think of yoga as just the physical exercise part, right? And you can go to yoga studios, everywhere and get a workout. But that's not the intent of yoga. Yes, it works the body. Absolutely, you can get in fantastic shape by practicing hatha yoga or whatever. But Yoga is a spiritual practice in the physical exercises. The asanas are only one branch of many, right? And you might practice some pranayama, which is the breathing part, you might meditate. There's also bhakti yoga and karma yoga. And there's so many different kinds of yoga that don't necessarily involve just the physical postures. And I'm not an expert in yoga, so I don't want to speak too much about it. But you know, there is a gradual preparation of the energy body, the higher spiritual centers to be able to handle the amount of power that will flow through during higher level practices. um you know, Chi Gong is like that as well. So Taoist Taoist yoga. Right? Even though you know Yoga is not a term a Taoist term, but to put a Western spin on it, I guess in Taoism, there are lots of physical exercises to work the energy body to prepare the energy body to make it more resilient, to move things around. And you can go, you can go to a Tai Chi class, you can go to Qigong class, you're not going to learn the highest level practices right away. Why, because one of those two things will happen, one, it's not going to work for you, it's just not you're just not prepared. Just don't have the capacity to generate that much energy. Or to handle it, too, you could wind up hurting yourself, right? It's like I go to, you know, I trained in martial arts for for decades and decades. And so I was about five years old, five, or six anyway, trained in martial arts for a really long time. And, you know, train on my own. Now, these days, I used to teach. And it's like, people would, people would show up to class, you know, for the first time, and expect to be Bruce Lee, or expect to, you know, show me the most advanced techniques, I just want to learn, you know, techniques, I'm like, you can't even make a proper fist yet. You know, you can't get out of the way of a punch. And I'm just going to teach you, you know, vibrating palm strikes that can cause internal organs to explode. Even if I had the inkling to teach that to you. And they don't, there's, there's things that I refuse to teach some of the internal internal techniques that I learned, I would refuse to pass on, because there was no need for them. There were two, they were not self defense at that point. You know, hitting somebody and causing an Oregon to fail seven days later. which believe me is a real thing. That's not self defense. And so I found no need to ever pass that on to any students. Um, but even you know, people wanted to, you know, teach me the death touch, teach me this teach me that I'm like, Look, if you just, you know, if you just want to hurt people go pick up a toaster and hit somebody over the head with it. But here to train your body, mind and spirit. And yes, the techniques that I'm going to teach you can be used in self defense. But you got to train, you know, and I would it. Sometimes it was disheartening. I would teach a movement, for example, some small technique, and say, Okay, go go practice this technique, and send people off, and I go work with the student and they'd look and I'd see a bunch of students standing around and talking in the class. Which is a big no, no, in martial arts studios. You don't stand around and chat. So I go, I'm like, What are you guys doing? Like, oh, we're waiting for the next thing. Like, what do you mean? Like, Well, we did this, like, how many times we practiced it once? The like, what's the next thing? And like, well, you practice this movement for the next 10 years until you understand it. Most people don't have the patience for that. And that's fine. Understandably, we live in a world of instant gratification of everything available at our fingertips on the internet. But if that's not the kind of preparatory work you're trying to do, or you're willing to do or you're capable of, then esoteric practices of any kind be a martial arts or yogic or spirituality is probably not for you.

Esoteric spirituality does not impart supe you know, instant superhuman abilities on you. In fact, spiritual powers sidas in Sanskrit, you know people I've, I've experienced people doing things that would be considered supernatural. You know, and it's only for the fact that there were many other people witnessing the same thing that I witnessed, at the same time that I didn't think I was, had been drugged or hallucinating or whatever. I witnessed some things that were fairly supernatural, but people who are awakened will tell you that those powers are a bit of a trap along the pathway on the pathway to awakening, why, because people get fat, they get attached to those abilities. So there's a spiritual teacher, I never got to meet in person, but who I've, you know, I've followed his teachings and through his student who teaches them his name, or actually a couple of his students, his name is Lester Levinson, founder of the Sedona Method, I Sedona Method, I highly recommend for anybody, you can pick up the book, you can take a course you can. The book is really cheap on Amazon. Life changing stuff, really, really good stuff and not. It's presented in a very much not no spiritual baggage to it, right. Like I took some courses with them, I went to New York, and there was a rabbi in the course, for example. So it's not religiously based or anything like that. But according to his students, people say with them, Lester developed Lester Levinson, that person found this he developed a lot of abilities along his path as he was awakening, like stuff would just happen where he could, he could manifest stuff kind of at will. And he realized that that was a trap, like he could spend the rest of his life just fascinated by manifesting things. Right and he become attached to that in the Buddha teaches us that attachment is the source of suffering. And so what he did was he actually gave up his abilities, like you can, you can do that. You know, somebody who can levitate or you know, shape shift, or you know, whatever, let's say somebody has that ability, they can just decide to give that up. Okay, I'm done with that. And it goes away. And the person when they do that, they go deeper into source deeper into reality deeper into, and the description of that deepness is bliss, right. There's, you know, the Sanskrit word Ananda, which is bliss, but it's like perfect bliss. There's a date not to go too far afield here, but there's a Japanese deity called Fudo mu who is the unmovable one. And statues of him have him he's, you know, sitting and he has it looks kind of fierce and he's holding a club. And the idea is to have this image in perturb ability. Right to have a mind that is completely undisturbed by what's going on. Now, there's a lesson there. Right? There's a lesson in divine consciousness that it holds everything without being disturbed by it. And I'll give you I will give you a secret here. It's not a secret. A secret technique. One very powerful form of meditation is to sit and allow everything that's going on just to be exactly as it is to have no press difference. So if I sit and I look out the window and I see some garbage on the ground, that's fine. That's just an appearance that's showing up in my consciousness. They have no preference, no attachment to it, I don't care if it stays that way if it changes. But it's a practice of imperturbability. And that is one way of approaching the divine mind right and approaching the, the universal consciousness. Universal Consciousness holds everything it but is unchanging. And ultimately, this is what esoteric practice is aiming at. Most forms of esoteric practice most genuine forms of esoteric spirituality are gearing people up for you know, realization of Universal Consciousness might call it absorption into deity or, you know, oneness with God or whatever. Whatever terminology, it is Enlightenment awakening.

But a lot of people. So a lot of people aren't ready for that. It's a complete, it's a complete paradigm shift, right. And I don't use that term in a pop culture way. Your paradigm is your collection of beliefs about everything about reality. And it doesn't matter what that is, it's going to shift tremendously. So if your whole idea of reality breaks down, are you prepared for that? And then the other. The other question is, are you going into esoteric practice for the wrong reasons? This is not judgment, you're wrong. You're right. But it's more like, the reasons you're going into esoteric practice? Are they going to lead you to seek out the thing that is intended to be produced by those practices? Are they going to lead you to fail? So if I'm like, Well, I don't know. I'm going to use an extreme and silly example here. You know, let's say back in my back, and my single, this was never a thing for me. But back in my single days, if I said, I'm gonna practice esoteric yoga, because it'll make me more attractive to the ladies. Well, that's dumb, because it's not intended to do that. That's the wrong reason. Not that I'm judging the motivation to be more attractive to the ladies to be wrong, morally wrong or whatever. It's wrong because it's not going to do that. For me, it's not the intention. It might, who knows that might have that ability to some extent, but if I want to be more attractive to the ladies, I'm gonna, you know, go work out and pick out better cologne. It's much easier than spending 20 years of my life and meditation or, or whatever. So, if the reason is, you know, just curiosity, intellectual curiosity, you know, you that'll get satisfied, maybe, maybe get satisfied or maybe like, that's it. I can remember, many, many years ago, a very young adult. I was excited, like, I get initiated into a secret order of some kind. It's like, cool, I'm gonna learn the, you know, I'm gonna learn the secret word and blah, blah, blah, you know, secret password, all this stuff. And went through the initiation process and they're like, says the secret word. And they told it to me as like, that's it. I was literally my response. That's it. And, you know, looking back on that, I was like, Oh, I was silly young man. And I was only like, was after sort of the, the the outer aspects of the esoteric right what's can I do I have to I have a secret that other people do well, I feel special, there's a certain amount of I need to feel specialness going on there. I get that we all want to feel special and unique and like an insider and part of the club and all of those things

you know, and there are ways to do that, that are, you know, that are non, that are non spiritual as well. You know, join a civic organization, run for local office, join a club of some kind. But I think what I'm saying is esoteric spirituality is not easy, it's not an easy path to anything. It's not a shortcut, it may be the only pathway to certain things. But that doesn't make it easy. Right. If the only pathway to the top of a mountain is a you know, 600 foot sheer cliff, that doesn't make that cliff easy to easier to climb just makes it the only way to get to the top of the mountain

and also the coffee here. Coffee is a tool for higher consciousness, I realized that the coffee is not everybody's bag, but I do enjoy my coffee. So let's talk about the word occult a little bit. So the word occult literally means hidden. And so by definition, all occult practices are esoteric meaning they're not given out to the general populace. They are hidden. However, not not all esoteric practices would necessarily be considered a cult, for example. Generally speaking, you if you're practicing, you know, historically anyway, not today. But historically, if you were practicing things that were considered a cult, you would be doing it in secret. Because it's very risky. You couldn't be well you could be executed, tortured to death executed. In a lot of places, no matter what you were doing, you you know, certainly up until very recent history could be burned at the stake or tortured or thrown in prison for practicing, you know, consorting with spirits, etc, etc. So occult practices are all esoteric in that they are inner teachings frequently there are initiations and occult practices. However, there are a lot of people who practice a cold things solo because historically they have been, it was dangerous to practice with other people, although they would, you know, certain people would take on apprentices or whatever. And, you know, there are rich, very rich occult histories behind behind a lot of things. Today, the founding of the United States of America. The founding fathers were predominantly Freemasons. There are a lot of occult spiritual ideas hidden in the symbology and words and practices and things like that. Now, there is amongst many, even today, this idea that occult practices are devil or always devil worship or whatever, and that's just not true. There's a lot of Christian occultism. One figure to look at historically is Dr. John D. He was the court astrology or to Queen Elizabeth The first. So back in the Elizabethan days, he was an astrologer and Alchemist, a mathematician. He was a cryptographer, meaning he he wrote codes. He acted as a spy for Queen Elizabeth, he was a close confidant. And he was performing rituals, ostensibly. So his idea, a lot of his ideas actually led to the, what the modern world basically many things we have in the modern world, he coined the term the British Empire, for better or for worse, you know, we'll talk about imperialism too much, but you know, basically creating the, you know, setting England up as a superpower, it was not a very powerful country for, you know, for all of its history. He was working, supposedly, with angels, in order to bring about the apocalypse, the end, you know, the End Times, very apocalyptic. But he was, you know, obviously, he was practicing and secrets. And people didn't know about what he was doing until his diaries were discovered many years after his death. He was working with scryer. Also, you know, it's interesting, you can look at him from lots of different perspectives. This great book by Jason Lewis called John D in the empire of angels, very thick book, very well researched, well written. Jason leaves a really great author. But anyway, talks about, you know, in this book, he talks about how a lot of our modern ideas come directly from this one guy who was devoutly devoutly Christian practicing occult practices. So the Order of the Golden Dawn, again, in a very Christian, couple of very Judaic, I guess, you know, very Jewish, esoteric practices, Sufism, very Islamic. So although these are esoteric, there are, you know, occult practices mixed and there's magic basically. And de was not out to, you know, perform magic like to manifest a castle for himself or, you know, whatever he was really trying to, he was trying to communicate with, communicate with angels to bring about heaven on earth, which is basically the apocalypse, you know, the end times, but he wanted to set up, set England up as the ruler of the entire world with Queen Elizabeth the first as its head, as the Empress of the entire world. And he thought that's what God wanted him to do. And I'm not sure the in his diaries, he took meticulous notes in his diaries, the angels never told him that was what he was supposed to do. But that's what he thought he was supposed to do. So there's some controversy about it, because of the the person that he was working with at the time was, you know, not always the most scrupulous person. This guy Edward Kelly, which might not have been his real name, but he had been in trouble for coming confidence games before but these guys worked together for something like seven or nine years, basically every day performing complex rituals to contact these angels to the point where they were both seeing and hearing them now we could argue whether they were hallucinating whether he was being conned whether whatever, whatever whatever, but there is a calm Plex series of works base based on their findings that have influenced a lot of things and in what we consider modern thought. So one cannot you can't deny the influence you might not be aware of it. It's not like his name is on everything.

But yeah, he was an alpha mist and astrologer, scientist, highly educated, he had more books. In his collection books were books were very hard to come by, in those days, as one might imagine, very, very expensive things. And he had more books in his collection than the libraries of Cambridge and Oxford combined. They each had a couple 100 books. In their collection, he had several 1000 books in his collection. So imagine, you know, imagine having more, owning more physical books, then Harvard and Yale combined, give you some idea of how learned this man was. He was a polymath, he, you know, knew several languages he studied, he knew. So at that time, of course, there was only so much quote unquote, science that you could know, right science and mathematics, and stuff. You know, Isaac Newton and come along, and wherever else, he basically knew. All of the science there was to know in the western world at that time. All he had studied all of the math. And astronomy and astrology were basically the same thing at that time. All the math all the physical science, all that stuff. smart, smart, dude, true Renaissance man. And by the way, he would sign his letters to Queen Elizabeth in code. And the code was double Oh, look like a double oh seven. And that's where Ian Fleming got the the code for James Bond and his books. So really cool, dude, read up on him. If you get a chance, if you're into reading historic stuff, check out Jason lives, John Dee and the Empire of angels. It's good read, I have not completed it yet, I will have to admit, but the beginning parts are quite fascinating. And I think the end parts he goes on to talk about some of the more modern people that he influenced, such as Jack Parsons, who founded Jet Propulsion Laboratory. So there's a real mix of science and spirituality. In those days, they were not separate things. They were intimately linked. Somewhere along the line, we decided that science proved that spirituality isn't real and spirituality denies science, but I don't think that has to be the case or true. Anyway, hope that is a little bit enlightening on some of the differences between exoteric and esoteric practices and if you're considering esotericism in any way, you know, just be aware of what you're getting into. And go into it for you know, if you go into it for the right reasons, and you have the you know you the understanding that things take time, and initiations change paradigms and you won't be the same then you'll be okay. We're gonna leave you for today. I hope you're happy and healthy and I will talk to you real soon.

Announcer 59:05

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshaman.com

EP55 Exploring the Power of Spiritual Healing

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:47

Hello, everybody.

as I record this, it is early morning, mid February is that I'm recording this on February 13. It's the day before Valentine's Day, the feast day of St. Valentine, a martyr, who was killed in I think around two to the 260s ad

by the Roman Emperor Claudius the second. Anyway. Enough about that, today, we're going to be exploring the power of spiritual healing. I'm going to talk about spiritual healing. It's a little bit of my bread and butter as I teach and practice shamanism. And healing is a really important part of that practice. Particularly when I work with clients, but also as I'm teaching, and I, I'm teaching students healing practices and self healing practices. And I'm working on myself. And I want to talk today about the nature of spiritual healing. And I realize this may sound like a bit of a contradiction, and it isn't a way. But I'm a very scientifically minded spiritual person. In that, not that he necessarily use scientific method to explore spiritual healing. I think there are people who are starting to do that, who know more than I do. But I read a lot of scholarly articles, not just stuff that's published in online or in pub, you know, popular magazines and things like that, I guess, when do people even read magazines anymore? But I read journal articles, I read books published by academics, I read peer reviewed studies of things. And there's, you know, there are some interesting studies that have happened, surrounding practices that one would consider spiritual. For example, there are a ton of studies of meditation 1000s, of studies of meditation. Now, you know, before that, maybe I don't know, I wasn't alive really before that, but before that, you would have people who, you know, attributed the benefits of meditation to, you know, completely to spirit and some people who would contribute it to this, you know, placebo effect or whatever we know that the mind and the body are intimately linked one affects the other in a significant way. And I'm going to talk about that I'm going to talk about going even beyond the mind, how can quieting your mind reducing the noise in your consciousness, have such a profound effect on physical health? And mental health, and even psychosocial health, right? Meditation has proved to enhance relationships between people. How could that be if we're just these machines? Were just these material machines that work like clockwork and you turn you know, you turn the spring? So one of the things we know and not necessarily know why. But we know placebo effects works. Right? you hand somebody a sugar pill. And, you know, it alleviates a certain amount of disease, discomfort, whatever. Not that you can sell a sugar pill and say this will cure your disease. You can do that. But we know that it happens in clinical trials. else. And so, you know, they thought, Well, geez, you know, maybe the mind does affect the body and there's a power of expectation. And even in some studies where they told people, we're just giving you a placebo, it still worked. It's pretty significant how consciousness affects the body. And so I want to present a model for understanding the nature of spiritual healing, and for exploring the connection between mind and body. And, you know, along the line, oh, I'll talk about some specifics. You know, and I'm a shamanic practitioner. So I'm looking through a lens of shamanic healing, where somebody who is a faith healer, or somebody who does energy, healing of some kind, they're going to be looking at things through a different lens. It doesn't mean my way is true and your way is false, or vice versa. It means you have different perspectives. This is something I think we've lost sight of in this world, where we think that our experience of things is objective truth. We never, ever, ever experience quote, unquote, objective truth until the point in which you achieve permanent enlightenment. And you unite your consciousness with the, the consciousness of the universe, and you just experience things as they are. But before that moment, we are human. And we, everything we see here do evaluate whatever, we're making judgments based on our experience, and our teaching, and the culture we grew up in the family grew up and and none of that is the same given to people given any two people. And it's really interesting, because I have, I have identical twin daughters. So I have, you know, genetically identical daughters. And they could not be more different personality wise, they're very different personalities. I mean, they share a lot of stuff in common, they're both 16 year old girls, they like a lot of the same music, they like a lot of the same movies, they also dislike things, one person, one of the my daughters will dislike significantly, something that my other daughter likes. And food choices are really different. They don't like the same foods. And they are, you know, their personalities are incredibly different, even though they were, you know, genetically identical, raised in essentially the same environment. They are very, very individual. So that's always interesting to me, that whole nature nurture. thing. And anyway, I'm gonna get into this, understanding the nature of spiritual healing. And to talk about this, I'm going to present a model and I may have presented this before. I'm going to present a model of human beings, right, a way of explaining like a map of human beings. Now all maps are fake. Map is not the territory, right? That's a famous, I don't know who came up with that. But is a famous saying and the map is not the territory if I have a map of my hometown, it is not my hometown. The question is, is the map useful? Am I trying to find out where the town hall is in his does it show up in the map? And can I get to where I'm going? If I can, then the map is useful, even though the map the map suffers from two main problems are not problems, but these are actually features of any map or model. One, it deletes information. Right? I don't have a map that shows every grain of sand in my town. That will not be useful. So it deletes a lot A lot of information, and I might delete it might not have all of the buildings in the town, all of the addresses. But if I can get from my home to the town hall, then that kind of solves that problem. Now, if the other part of the what models are is they are, there is a level of distortion, right? If I have a map of my hometown, it first of all is going to be smaller than my hometown, the comedian Steven Wright had a joke back in the day, he said, I have a, I have a full scale map of the United States. It says one mile equals one mile,

it's very difficult to fold, you know, he, we can't have a full set, you know that we also wouldn't be useful full scale map. So we delete a lot of information. And it's distorted. And, you know, most maps you're going to look at are going to be 2d, right. And so 3d maps to get around. So I'm going to present a model of human beings, which is going to be useful for studying the nature of spiritual healing. But is going to delete a whole lot of information, it's going to distort information, and it's going to be presented through the lens that I view it through. So other people will have other models, they will use other terminology. And you just have to evaluate whether this is a useful model for you. This model is useful for me to teach the stuff he's about to think, really hard about how to present this information. So the model that I'm going to use sort of blends from the way things are described in some spiritual practices, in that human beings have many, many bodies. We have a physical body, right? We have an energy or a theoretic body. I'll describe some of these things in a little more detail. Second, we have an astral body, we have a mental body, we have a causal body. And we have a spiritual body. And the differences between these bodies are like the differences between our organs, I have a heart, I have lungs, they do different things. But they are necessary, they have to work together. I could not live without either a heart or lungs. If I didn't have a heart, my lungs wouldn't work. If I didn't have lungs, my heart wouldn't work, things work together. But there are also some differences between them that are subtle. Now the main difference between the main difference not the only difference, but the main difference between the bodies that humans have. And not just humans, but all living things. But I'm going to focus on humans at this point. The main difference, or the level of subtlety. And we go from what's called gross to subtle bodies. Now the grossest body at least the grossest body we can perceive, not gross, like disgusting, but gross, like heavy, more material. Right, has mass has weight has, you know, takes up space. The most grossest the physical body. Right, we have a physical body, you have a physical body, you are not a physical body, you have a physical body. Your physical body has a size and a weight and takes up space and you know, exists in location. And it's challenging. To change the shape of the physical body, as anyone who works out knows, you can change it a little bit, but you can't grow a third arm out of your back or suddenly turn into a bear shape shift into a bear, Although who knows, maybe some people can at a certain level of spiritual development. But because this physical body is sort of locked in, it's hard to change its shape. Now one body kind of removed from the physical body is the energy or etheric body. And just like the physical body, this body kind of takes up space, it's less gross, it can't really weigh it. You know, solid objects can pass through it. But it has it has organs and energy channels and things. And this is the level of, we could call it a spiritual body. It's an energy body otherwise known as the etheric body. And this is the level at which things like acupuncture and Reiki and other kinds of energy healing work. And this, this layer of what it is, this body is very close to the physical body, right in subtlety grossness and it can't really leave the physical body, and they rely on each other like the the lungs and the heart rely on each other. If you're if you were, if your energy body were somehow completely removed from you, you would you would die. Because it's so it's intertwined with your physical processes. And your physical body strongly affects your energy body, your energy body strongly affects your physical body, we can affect the energy body, through movement, which is what you know, tai chi, chi Kong, any sort of, you know, movement can affect the energy body significantly. And then the energy body can also affect movement. So, when some people go through, like what we call kundalini awakening, or they have energy passing through their system, they get what are called Korea's, which are sometimes shaking in the body, a part of the body or the whole body might start shaking. This happened to me. Years ago, I didn't know what was going on. And, you know, I was meditating every night and doing some very deep meditations, and my body would start involuntarily shaking, like what is going on? Am I having, you know, some sort of seizure? Or what is it No, it's it's it's feedback, it's you know, energy from your energy body pumping into your physical body and affecting the nerves which can certainly happen. And we can do vice versa, we can affect the the nerves and the muscles, and that in effect to the energy body, now, there's different layers to the energy body. There's a layer that is very, very close to the physical body and follows the physical body, like if you've ever sort of seen auras, and you see this layer of energy that's you know, an inch or two outside the body and generally in the shape of the human body, this Some people refer to this as the etheric double. And then out beyond that, is sort of this a amorphous blob of energy roughly, egg shaped, changes, shape changes, size changes color, less tied to the physical body more subtle than the etheric body. And this, you know, some people refer to as aura, but it's part of your energy, body or bodies, we could, you know, in a different model looking through different ones, we could separate those out. We could create all these different layers to the or I know there are systems that do that. Another layer that is more subtle, and this is a layer that shamanic healing, does significant work on is what's called the astral body or the soul body. Now, this body is essentially formless. So it's kind of challenging to think of a formless body. But you know, you can think of it as you know, sort of formless energy that can take different shapes and is shaped by the consciousness it's shaped strongly by the emotions, it's shaped by thought. So we know that this body interfaces with the mind interfaces really strongly with emotions. And you can split off in you know, it's strongly linked to consciousness, and so you can split off part of this body and traveling this is what astral projection and shamanic journey Learning and some spiritual by location right when high level saints and Yogi's and things appear to be in more than one location at a time. It's usually their astral body but there's so much so much ability or power in their astral body that it actually people perceive it to be physical. And this astral body can be can be wounded, it can be fragmented parts of it can get lost. This is where a lot of shamanic healing takes place.

This is where we do ceremony called Soul Retrieval. Where we're getting parts of this fractured soul. And this happens primarily but not completely, primarily due to trauma, we all have traumas, some minor, some major, anything that scares us, that frightens us significantly, that causes us to fear for our safety, or existence is trauma. And can cause we call soul loss parts of ourselves get fragmented and if you have soul loss, most of us have some degree of soul loss, some people have significant soul loss. You get things happening, you know, usually a lot of the symptoms of soul loss appear first. In consciousness in you know, with emotional things, we see anxiety, depression, we see PTSD, we see tremendous amount of dissociation. Many of my clients report a strong sense of disconnection, disconnection from the self disconnection from the world. But soul loss because all of these bodies affect each other, can also cause physical problems. Right. And so sometimes soul retrieval, you know, people with chronic illness can get some relief. Now, let me say up front, that if you have any sort of illness do not simply rely on spiritual healing, we want to, we want to work with all the bodies as well as we can, right. So if you have, if you break your arm, go to the doctor, get the bone set, get a cast on and then Then afterwards, if you are interested in spiritual healing, go to a spiritual healer which will create the conditions spiritual conditions under which you might heal more readily. Now, I think I, you know, I make the statement that all healing is self healing. Now, that sounds weird, maybe because people come to me for healing services or people go to the doctor or whatever. What happens the way that I describe shamanic healing and the way that I even describe physical healing is I'm working to create the conditions under which you heal. So you have soul loss, you know, that is a cause it's not the condition. I work with helping spirits to repair the soul loss, so that you can incorporate, you can, you know, you can sort of bring that soul essence back into your normal, everyday reality, and you can heal from whatever it is that you've got going on. Your depression can get better over time, but you're healing you are doing the healing. If you break your arm, and the doctor sets the bone and puts a cast on, the doctor hasn't healed your bone. Right, the healing your bone heals itself, but the doctor is creating the condition for your bone to heal properly. Right. If you have an infection, that's causing all kinds of problems, you know, the they're going to give you medication, perhaps antibiotics or antivirals or something that are going to create conditions that will help your body heal itself. Right and might kill off bacteria or no virus or whatever. And after that happens, your body's immune system can go back to normal and You can achieve a state of health. So all healing, in my mind is self healing. But we get help along the way we get help from spirit, we get help from doctors, we get help from who, you know, nutrition from massage therapists, all of these things can help us in different different ways in different levels. And if you have a some kind of condition, particularly a chronic condition, you want to use as many available options, as makes sense for you to heal from that. So don't askew medicine, if it can be helpful. You know, I just want to get a meditation I just want to go to you know, and I understand some people go through yours. You know, I know a lot of people up here where I live with chronic Lyme disease. Because Lyme is really bad, it's very hard to diagnose in certain circumstances. And people go sometimes, you know, people go 510 20 years without getting a diagnosis, so they haven't been treated for it. And by that time, it's so embedded in their system, that it causes so many problems, tons and tons of problems, and even the medications that they give you. They cause, you know, I'm not an expert in line, but they cause the, the parasite that causes Lyme disease to die off in large quantities, which releases neurotoxins in your system. And that can, you know, that can kill you if it gets bad enough. So, you know, I know a lot of people in the shamanic community who started out because they were working on treating chronic Lyme. And they still go see doctors or naturopaths or whatever, but to get a handle on, some of its to build their system up. They work with shamanic healing. Now, at the most subtle level, and there are all kinds of talking going back to this body, model, multiple body like, think of those Russian nesting dolls, right? You open up one and there's another one inside, there's another one inside, there's another inside, it's a little bit like that. At our core level, at our most subtle level, is what we in my shamanic tradition called the Spirit. Some people swap the way they use soul and spirit is the spirit of the spirit body, the spirit body is completely formless. It cannot be injured, it cannot be corrupted by what happens in your life, it's unaffected by what happens in your life it is. It never needs healing. You can access it to perform healing because it has a healing effect on all of the other bodies. But it does not need healing. You don't have to heal your spirit, it is whole complete. It is also because it is completely subtle. Meaning there's no sense of mass, or size or shape or taking up space. It is outside of time and space. It's unaffected by time and space. So it is unborn and Undying. It is in essence, in any words, I used to describe it or kind of inadequate but it is an essence, your Divine Spark, the part of you that is connected to all there is to God, the universe source whatever, whatever, whatever term you want to use to describe all there is now the interesting and nice thing in shamanism is you know, we experienced that. We have a conscious experience of that. But we also have a conscious experience of that divine spark in everything. That divine spark exists in the chair, I'm sitting in the the the tree I'm looking at the cat that's, you know, causing a disturbance in my kitchen right at the moment. Now he's, he's okay, he's staring at me. Now. He hears me talking about him. He's craning his neck looking at me. You heard me say cat even though it's not his name, you know. But that same Divine Spark is in everything. It's our connection to Source. It cannot die. It cannot be wounded, injured, broken, affected at your core. to you our whole complete, infinite, undying, immortal. And, you know those words hardly describe the truth of that, but, and sort of awakening or enlightenment or whatever. Whatever, again, terms, terms or models, they're, you know, they oversimplify things they very reductionist, but awakening is about awakening to the truth of that matter. Spiritual Awakening is about awakening to the truth of who you really are. At your core.

Most of us catch glimpses of that while we practice. Some people who are considered Enlightened Masters reach a permanent state of identification with that divine spark. That's what we call enlightenment. You can get there, because we all have that we all have that capacity, even the cat. Even the cat at its core is enlightened. Even the chair that I'm sitting on at its core is enlightenment. So, we have different types of different flavors of consciousness. Right, my consciousness is different than your consciousness. Or, I'll take that back a little bit. The, the field, the capacity to be conscious consciousness itself is is the same everywhere in the universe and for everyone. But the experiences that we have that arise in consciousness are different. But the quality of consciousness, the cont the body, that is consciousness. Now, this is the body that contains everything. And there is only one, this is where non dual it non dualistic thinking, not to go too too far down this path, because this is kind of a topic for another episode of the podcast, but under underneath it all. What we describe as consciousness is a field or a body. That is everything there is. Now we might describe it as God or source or the universe. But this is another body but it is so subtle, that is completely undifferentiated.

Meaning, the field of consciousness that I am, that I when I say I this individual body, mind is experiencing is the same field of consciousness that you are experiencing in this moment. And the thing that makes us feel different is what we in spirituality called ego. The sense of individual i, and the stories that we tell about ourselves to ourselves, right? When I say I am a shamanic teacher, that's a story. The truth or falsehood of it doesn't matter. It's a story that I tell about myself. I hold it to be true.

But it implies a difference and implies that I am a shamanic teacher implies that there are people who are not shamanic teachers. Or, you know, there are separate consciousnesses that implies that my cat the consciousness that differentiates itself as my cat is not a shamanic teacher. But underneath it all, is this layer of reality. That all is one, everything is the same. All consciousness is the same consciousness. I'm I the individual i the sense of I as an individual, this ego this ego body mind, is just experiencing one slice of that consciousness. But that consciousness holds everything there is in all of the universes everywhere. Okay, back to healing. So let's talk about the need Share of spiritual healing a little bit using this body model. Now when we'll talk about spiritual healing in the context of working with someone who is doing some work with you, but again, all healing is self healing and you have the ability to do spiritual level healing energy body healing on yourself. You have the ability to learn shamanic practice, it takes a long time. So going to shamanic practitioner, and there are certain things that for me, I find it easier to go to another practitioner for like, I don't do Soul Retrieval on myself. I haven't tried that. Maybe I could, but it's just a lot easier to have somebody else do that. So I go to another shamanic practitioner for that kind of work. For that level of healing. Sometimes it's good to get another perspective. So you go to someone who is some sort of healer, some sort of spiritual healer, some sort of, we'll start with energy healing. Okay. And I don't know a lot about different systems of energy healing, but I know a little bit about Reiki I've, you know, I did you know, I was empowered to give Reiki I'm not a Reiki Master, or, you know, and I know there's like 1000 flavors of Reiki these days. I've seen shamanic Reiki and Kundalini Reiki and all kinds of stuff, tantric Reiki, and I don't know the differences. But what's happening in this case is, one becomes a channel a conscious channel for energy coming from somewhere and Reiki it might be universal energy. In other types of energy healing, it might be coming from angels or some other source of energy. And one uses that energy, it goes into the body with intention to unblock energy pathways add energy to places that need energy, take energy away from, you know, parts that that need energy taken away, and helps restore balance to the body so that the body can heal. Also, the mind the mind and the body are connected, it's really hard to separate them. And so what's happening is affecting people on the energy body level, the energy body, in turn, touches, influences affects the physical body, the emotional body, these are other bodies I haven't really mentioned, because we get super complicated and break them down. And the thing is, you know, there's not, there's not a clear boundary between all of these bodies. So we could say there's an emotional body, right? There's a body that holds all our emotions. And I get scared, right? I have an emotion I get scared. How do I know that I'm scared. So it's having an emotion. Cognitively knowing Oh, I'm scared of that bear over there that's running at me. I know because that emotion affects the physical body and I get physical sensations. I get adrenaline in my system, my heart rate goes up my blood vessels in my limbs constrict, my my blood starts pumping to my larger muscles, my legs might start to shake as the adrenaline gets them ready for me to fight or flight or freeze. Right. So there's a reaction in my body, there's something I feel in my body I feel sad, I might get a lump in my throat, I may get a pit in my stomach. I get a knot. So it feels like there's a knot inside me. Right there's there's energy stuff happening that's affecting the physical. So you know this, there's energy work also with the you know, shamans also work at that level. The shamans work on multiple bodies. This is one of the reasons I like shamanic healing. So there is work that shamans do on the energy body, right. Some shamans will work with the chakra system and the energy channels you know, I know of you know they work with this in Andean shamanism, for example, When Mayan the Mayans recognized energy centers in the body, it's not just I mean, don't call them chakra as they call them something else. But you know, these things are not unique to Vedic studies from India, they were independently discovered everywhere because they exist at a level that can be perceived spiritually, can be felt can be seen, heard. So, there's, you know, there are shamans that work on these energy bodies. And there's work that I do frequently called extraction work, which clears things out of the energy body, I've had clients with physical issues. And, you know, again, I don't like to talk too much too much about the stuff, I still think that if you have a physical thing, you need to rule out organic issues, physical issues, right. But, you know, I had a client with a shoulder injury injury couldn't move her shoulder it was frozen, and hadn't had a lot of success getting that to move. And they did what's called an extraction ceremony with her and she could move her shoulder after that. And what it appeared to me is that there were energy blockages there that were affecting the nerves in her shoulder, causing the muscles around the shoulder to seize up and preventing significant movement of the shoulder. So there's work on the energy body, and that will filter through to the physical body and it will filter through relatively quickly usually you might feel even instantaneous healing because the energy body overlaps interpenetrates interacts with the physical body

so shamanic healing and some other forms of healing I'm not all that familiar with also work at the level of the astral or soul body. This is where shamanism really shines because shamans have been dealing with trauma for 10s of 1000s of years, if not longer. And so when we have trauma, and certain certain, you know, certain other things can can cause us but trauma is the number one, we have a certain like there's a fracturing of the self. And what's interesting to me is talking to some modern psychotherapeutic practitioners about what happens to people who undergo severe trauma is we use very similar language. We're talking about things very similarly when we talk when I talk about soul loss and you know, some psychotherapist talk about a fracturing of the self and leading to you know, dissociation and depression all these things. We're talking about the same thing through different lenses. This is what I'm talking about these lenses, these perspectives, okay. And a lot of you know, a fair number of psychotherapist, I have, I have psychotherapist as clients and I have had clients referred to me by psychotherapists and, you know, I've had psychotherapist, tell me, you know, trauma, you know, they worked with trauma for years and they're like, trauma is a disease of the soul. I'm like, Okay, well, now you're speaking my language. You know, however, there are components of trauma that show up in the body. And there's a lot of research about this. You know, the vagus nerve is implicated in a lot of traumatic response and, and, you know, there's a, there's a really famous book out there called the Body Keeps the Score, and there's a lot of trauma, healing, going on somatic trauma, healing through using the body to heal trauma. And I think it's all fantastic. I really do. I think trauma is such an insidious problem because it is the cause behind a lot of disease behind the disease of chemical dependency very frequently, right? A lot of addiction out there, comes out of trauma. A lot of depression, anxiety, PTSD, all kinds of stuff. physical problems come out of, you know, traumatic experiences. You know there are doctors who are starting to realize this that you know certain physiological things like there was a doctor I think his name is Sarno I think he wrote some a book about, I'm not an expert in this. So forgive me if this is wrong, but it was a doctor who's treating a lot of people, I think he's probably still out there practicing, as far as I know, treating a lot of people with back pain and finding they were having like the weird muscle tension in their back or other parts of their body, like what's going on here. And when he probed into it, he found that they were doing what's called armoring holding tension there as a response to trauma. So if you're about like, if somebody were about to punch you in the stomach, for example, he would tighten up your stomach muscles to protect your internal organs. So when people experience trauma, sometimes there is a chronic tightening to protect the body. And because the body is traumatized, the spirit has, you know, you've got soul loss happening, you've got nervous stuff happening, you've got all these things happening. The body is armoring to protect itself. And so I know you know, I know people who have things like chronic constipation, no matter what medications they take, or dietary changes they make or you know, whatever. And then they do something like do some shamanic healing or do you know ketamine therapy? Right? So ketamine is now being used to treat anxiety and depression with fantastic results, by the way, both low dose ketamine and ketamine infusion. Again, I'm not an expert, I'm not a medical practitioner, but I've I've read a lot of things and seen a lot of things. But I, you know, I know people who have had chronic constipation their whole lives, and they do ketamine therapy, and it the condition improves significantly. Now there, you know, there isn't anything new the result is physical, there is a physical cause there but what's happening is, it's allowing the person to feel relaxed enough to disarmer the muscular tension that's going on in the abdominal region that's causing the constipation it's, it's pretty amazing, right? Because, you know, ketamine doesn't affect everyone that way doesn't give everybody diarrhea or, you know, whatever if you're not constipated, but so it's kind of interesting how those things can affect each other. So, shamans will work on multiple levels of the body, right in some Shamans in indigenous cultures will work with herbs, right? So work with the physical level. They'll work with spiritual level, they'll call in helping spirits to make repairs the energy body or take energy away that shouldn't be there. They'll work on the soul body for soul loss, they'll work on other levels, if there are, you know, possessing beings or other sort of spiritual problems happening. Again, one of the reasons not I'm not trying to push shamanic healing on anybody, it's not my I'm not really here to promote shamanic healing. Again, it's the lens that I look at things through. And it's one of the, you know, the reasons I really love shamanic healing, is that it addresses the person as a whole, and looks at them through different lenses and affects them in different places. So here's the thing. Here's the thing with Soul level healing. So a lot of people, almost 100% of my clients come to me, needing soul retrieval. Most people come to me with some level of trauma. Trauma is so common, we don't even know. I don't think there's adequate research out there to show how many people in this world are affected by trauma. You know, we're on the tail end of a global pandemic, we were all traumatized by that. I don't care if you're one of these people who are like, well, I've got an immune system and I don't need to wear a mask in public. And, you know, I don't care if you're one of those people who thought that way. And told yourself you weren't scared of getting sick or you weren't scared of loved ones dying, wherever you were affected. We were all affected. We all have soul loss from the pandemic. And in on the collective level, we have soul loss from the pandemic. You know, I think there should be a big collective healing at some point. But I actually argued for I'm doing soul level on a global basis. But so retrieval for, you know, for the entire club, I don't know how that would work, I haven't tried it. Like to try it with a group of shamanic practitioners at some point, but hey, you know, whatever. You can do Soul Retrieval for a group or an organization or even a building in animals, animals don't. Animals can get traumatized, it has to be pretty extreme. What will happen with animals, particularly mammals, if you watch like a dog or a cat, you're traumatized, you'll see them shake real quick, and then trot away. Usually, usually, for an animal to be strongly affected by trauma, it has to be repeated, ongoing, there has to be this sense of learned helplessness, like an animal that is abused or neglected for a long period of time. But I've seen I've seen them, if you watch wildlife specials, where they, you know, have to tranquilize a large animal out in the wild, you know, to, to tag it, or treated or study it or whatever they're doing. When the animal comes out of the anesthetic that they've given it, you'll see it instinctively shake there shaking out the trauma. Much like when we get scared, and we shake, there's kind of a different reason for that. But

shaking is one of the somatic treatments for trauma. But so when we, when we meeting people who practice shamanism do Soul Retrieval for people, there's an integration period. And I usually tell people, you know, plan on up to six weeks of integration work with this particular session, this particular work. Why is that? Well, again, the Soul Retrieval is isn't really the healing, the healing happens from the integrant. Like it, it is creating the conditions under which the person heals. Sometimes, this is not the norm, sometimes there's sort of this instantaneous, miraculous healing. And that's what people want. And, gosh, I understand that. Who would not want that to happen? Right. And if I could do that, for every single person in this world, I would just be hanging out in cancer, you know, pediatric cancer wards, carrying everybody with their cancer. But unfortunately, it doesn't quite work that way. And for most people, most people feel something, they feel some sense of relief. You know, sometimes dissociation can go away pretty quickly, or, you know, depression can be lifted, people can feel, you know, I had one of my first clients ever, I still remember a young gentleman who came in and he was complaining, I just feel dead inside. And I asked him, I said, Do you ever get dissociated? Oh, no. I mean, well, do you ever feel like the world isn't real? Or do you feel like you're just kind of Oh, yeah, all the time. I'm like, Okay, well, that's dissociation is like, Okay, well, I don't have any trauma. That's what you're talking about. Like, okay, well, you know, I know that not to be true, but some people have repressed their trauma so much, but not my, not my place to make somebody relive their trauma or to accept that they've had trauma or you know, whatever. But, um, after doing work on this person, this, which involved soul retrieval, he got up and he smiled, and he hadn't smiled the whole time I was with him. And he said, I feel joy inside for the first time that I can remember. Now, that's a beautiful result, that's about as good as a result as I could ever hope for. But that's to me, that's not the end of it. Right? So for now, he feels joyous inside, but how does he carry that through into the rest of his life? And so there would be an integration period, in which I would expect things to over time get better and better until there was sort of this normalized state where he would have more positive emotions, he would feel more things, he would be less disconnected from his feelings. And I've seen that happen with clients over and over and over again. So again, in my view, the nature of spiritual healing is not always that it's instantaneous and miraculous like you read in stories of miracles where people are instantly healed from being blind or are you know have some some sort of disease where they can't walk and then they can walk and you know that sort of thing those things are few and far between they do happen I fully believe that stuff happens. I've seen it happen I've had it happen in my own practice, but it's not the norm. And so I tried to set reasonable expectations with clients and you know, tell them you know, you can expect some relief today and then some overtime and you might need more than one session. It's up to you, you know, but I'm gonna make you wait a while before you have another session with me because I want this integration to happen I want you to see experience a new baseline and give your body time to heal itself. So anyway, this has been a little bit on the nature of and the power of spiritual healing. I hope that you are happy and healthy yourself and I will talk to you real soon.

Announcer 56:31

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshman.com

Why Has Shamanism Become So Popular?

Announcer 0:29

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now his John.

John Moore 0:48

Hello, everybody.

It has been a minute since I've done one of these podcasts. And I apologize. It's been a busy summer I've launched a brand new online shamanic community. If you practice shamanism, you can check it out at Shaman community.com. I've been, you know, traveling in state a little bit. I've been Gosh, I've got a whole slew of new students. Clients have been doing house clearings. I'm doing a ceremony for a wedding coming up soon that I'm designing. So a whole bunch of stuff going on. And I want I do want to talk about shamanism today. And I want to talk about modern shamanism. I want to talk about the resurgence in or this surge in interest in shamanism. I want to talk about the shamanic impulse, I want to talk about trauma a little bit. And so Let this serve maybe as a trigger warning, you know, I'm going to tell I'm going to talk a little bit about trauma, specifically, because it's part of my story, but it's also part of the reason why I think shamanism has become as popular as it is popular and trendy, shall we say? I mean, if you type shamanism into Google, you'll see, you know, shamanism in 60 minutes, and, you know, free online classes, and you'd see all kinds of stuff out there. So it is indeed, it has indeed become very popular, which I guess is good for folks like me. You know, it makes me incredibly busy. I haven't even I haven't done any guest podcasting recently. I do want to get back to that in the fall. But I'm in the middle of many things, including buying a house. You have been through that. You understand what a just complete headache. That is a don't know why buying a house in this country has to be so complex, other than there are a whole lot of people making money off of it. Anyway, let's talk. Let's talk about shamans. Let's talk about shamanism, shamanic practice. And if you've listened to any of my podcasts before, I always try to define my terms a little bit. And not because I'm trying to be pedantic or I don't need you to adopt my definitions of things. It is simply for understanding it is simply so that when I say a word like shamanism, that there's an understanding of what I mean when I say that, even if you have a different definition of that it's totally fine. English is a very imprecise language. I've talked about how the word love is really interesting. Because you can have, you can love your children and you can love your romantic partner and you can love cheeseburgers. And those are not the same thing. I hope not anyway. Anyway, let's talk a little bit about shamanism. Just in case you don't know what it is, I'm just gonna briefly I'm going to briefly define shamanism. So don't go away if you know what it is because this is not going to take very long. So when I'm asked, what is shamanism? I answer that in three ways or the three component answer to that. First of all, shamanism is a set of spiritual practices or tools that go back into play read history as far as we can determine. We don't know the origin. If there is a single origin, we don't know the origins of shamanism. But there is evidence of shamanic practice everywhere in the world, archaeologically going back 10s of 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of years, I'm just reading about this cave in this cave in Israel where they found, you know, at a sedimentary layer

300,000 years old. That's very old. They found the bone of a swan that had been carved for spiritual purposes. And somehow they're linking that to Swan shamanism. There is, you know, a whole body of academic stuff behind that, that I don't have a background in. But we'll just say that shamanism is really really old. And it encompasses a set of tools, which involve altered states of consciousness, working with spirits, and traveling in non ordinary realms are traveling in other dimensions traveling and spiritual dimensions. Okay, those are the practices. Shamanism also encompasses a worldview and a set of beliefs. This is not to say that all shamans believe exactly the same things. That's not true. Not all Christians believe exactly the same things. Not all Buddhists believe exactly the same things. But there is a common core of belief. And that Common Core includes animism, that is the belief that spirits inhabit things that were surrounded by spirit that there are spirits and trees and rocks and rivers. Besides people and animals. There's also an understanding about the about relationship about the the interconnectedness between things, that we're very connected to nature, we're very connected to the land. And shamanism is very nature based. So those are the first two components. The last component, and this is one that I'm going to focus on a little bit today is that shamanism encompasses an impulse, an archetypal impulse that seems to be present, throughout humanity. Well, it's archetypal. So it's in the collective. And that is an impulse to awaken spiritually in response to crisis. Let me repeat that this is an impulse to awaken spiritually in response to crisis. This crisis could be individual, this crisis could be tribal, this crisis could be global. Can you think of some individual, tribal and you know, we can exchange tribe for national or statewide or community crises? Can we think of some global crises? So in many areas, while many areas of the world there's political upheaval, there is we see authoritarianism and fascism on the rise. I realize everybody accuses everybody of being fascist. without really understanding what Fascism is. If you are calling people fascist, please look it up. I see people like you, liberal fascists, like well, fascism, by definition is an extreme right wing philosophy, political philosophy focused on power and charismatic leaders. And we see that all over the place we see that cropping up. So we have a global pandemic. And we're not we're not done with it. I know people are acting like COVID has gone in granted. We now have vaccines we now have better treatments for people people are not dying. In the ways they were. Our hospitals are not crashing the way they were our economies are still suffering. You know, People, people will try to blame things like inflation on single causes. Normally, some politician they don't like Joe Biden's fault. It's Trump's fault, blah, blah. And I'm not an economist, but it seems to me that there are a lot of compounding factors, which include

price gouging by corporations, particularly in the fuel industry, they are making record profits right now. And that is driving up the cost of everything, all of our goods that are shipped everywhere, from food, to transportation, to HEC to entertainment. We run on a fossil fuel economy, and maybe we shouldn't this is a good indicator that, you know, maybe it's time to think about that a little bit. So, yeah, so there's, you know, there's a bunch of stuff, causing this global inflation that's hurting a lot of people that's putting a lot of people in crisis. Individual crisis, let's talk about that. Let's talk about why. What happens, sorry, about the shamanic impulse and individual crisis for a moment. So when I came to study, study shamanism, and if you're not familiar with my story, in my early 40s, I went through a psychological crisis, I was diagnosed with PTSD. For those of you who know about PTSD a little bit, what I have, it's not technically a diagnosis in the DSM for whatever version they're on. But I have what's called complex or developmental PTSD. So this is the result of trauma that happened over many years. Particularly during during the formative ages of my life. There was severe chemical dependence, abuse, domestic violence, child abuse, we went through periods where we were very poor, or electricity was shut off. When all kinds of stuff, right, I don't, I won't go, not that I'm not. I'm fine to share my story. But I'm, I worry about re traumatizing people. And the reason why I did give a trigger warning at the beginning. But I want to give a little bit of background and I'll be a little bit general about it. So you know, I have, I had been suffering with depression, and suicidal thoughts and anxiety and all kinds of dissociation. And I had no idea it was not. I didn't have any understanding of what PTSD was. And I thought, well, I have not been to war it PTSD is for people who've been to war. And that's just not true. And, you know, a lot of people do that a lot of people do the trauma comparison game. Well, I didn't have it as bad as so and so. You know, whatever. So I just thought, I don't know, this is how this is how I am. I'm just depressed all the time. And sometimes I feel like we'd be life would be better off without me in it. And, you know, things kind of came to a head and one of the things that I learned or have learned sense is that if you have PTSD, particularly complex PTSD from stuff that happened during childhood, if you have children of your own as I do, I have twin daughters, when they get to the age that you were when some of this trauma happened or when the you know, the biggest part of the trauma happened that can trigger things for you, which is an interesting thing for me. Because being a parent was, was and you know, pretty much is still everything to me. You know, I really, really love my children have always loved my children. When I was married, my wife traveled all a lot, so I spent a heck of a lot of one on one time. With my daughters, we are still to this day extremely close. And I love them dearly and wanted to be a good parent. And in every possible way, did, you know went to parenting classes did

you know everything I could to be a good dad and just felt like I couldn't and felt like I was falling down and felt like at times that they would be better off without me. Which is, you know, it's not true. It's just things your brain tells you to kind of cope with stuff, and, you know, suicidal thoughts when you are, you know, having having thoughts like, you know, my kids would be better off without me. If I were out of if I were out of the picture, there would be better off without me, kind of thing. It's horrific. Like when I think about it, now, you know, what was going on? How could it's for it seems foreign to me now. Anyway, things were really, really rough. And what had happened was, I'd gotten super, super depressed. And I thought, well, you know, have major depressive disorder or something, and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go to therapy. And by the way, I highly recommend therapy, even if you're seeing shamanic healer, do therapies to do everything you can to, to heal. So I started seeing a therapist, and the therapists I don't think was trained particularly well in trauma. And I think that's something that we don't do well. Educationally is, you know, therapists become, quote, unquote, trauma informed. But aren't necessarily fantastic at dealing with trauma. In fact, I've, you know, I've had conversations with many therapists, not just therapists that I have been seeing as a therapist, but therapists who are friends or who studied shamanism with me, I have therapists, as clients actually now, which is pretty cool. Just taking a sip of coffee here. Wow, very hot. I have this lovely thermal mug that says papa bear on it, that my girlfriend, who I adore and love gave to me. But it keeps coffee very, very hot. hasn't quite cooled down enough to be gullible. sippable Yes, but not culpable. Anyway, um, I don't think we do a fantastic job. And some, you know, I remember talking to a therapist about, you know, what's the training around trauma and this and that, and I'm like, Well, you know, there's a little bit but not really enough. And a lot of therapists won't touch trauma with a 10 foot pole. And I'm like, Well, how does that work? Because just about everybody coming to you is coming with trauma. And she was like, Yeah, I know. Okay. So if you're a therapist, and you're listening to this, and, you know, I'm not telling you what to do. And I'm not insulting the, the role of therapy, I highly encourage people, and when my clients come to me with, you know, psychological, emotional, mental health issues. I, you know, I always tell them, you know, I will work with you, but you need to be working with a therapist, and if you're on medication, don't stop taking medication, and cetera, et cetera. So anyway, I was in personal crisis. I won't go into detail about it. But I came very, very close on more than one occasion to taking my own life. And the other, the other. The other aspect of that, that I don't have a great answer for this, but something I would challenge the therapeutic community on. Is that the way that we treat people in crisis in this country in the US, I don't know about other countries, maybe it's better in other places. Maybe it's worse. In the US, the way that we treat people in psychological emotional crisis is not fantastic. You know, they're going to Send. From a lay person's perspective, they're going to send armed people to your home. And they're going to try to talk to you. And there are a lot of people who are, you know, they're emotionally disturbed who won't wind up in altercations with the police right now, and, and our shot.

And, you know, this is not necessarily a criticism of the police, it's that they're not there. They're not equipped for the job. They're not trained to deal with that. So there are pilot programs where they'll have teams of therapists now that will go out. And those have been very successful. They have been. So anyway, one of the things I was really afraid of was any sort of incarceration, any sort of being locked up against my will. I had a, I would say borderline phobic fear of that. So I would not talk to my therapist about the thoughts I was having. I did one time, I said, you know, on, I forget exactly how I put it, but they talked about having suicidal thoughts. And she freaked out, to be honest, and I left the therapy session, and she left me a voicemail that said, you need to call me I was in a meeting. After the therapy session, I was distraught, I was in rough emotional shape. It didn't therapy session didn't go well. And she called me back and she said, left a message that said, if you don't call me back right away, I'm going to have to take steps. Wow, did that sound like a threat to me? At that time, I know what she was doing. She was you know, trying to cover her, but legally, she was, you know, trying to make sure I was okay, you know, whatever. But the way she went about it was probably the only option she had. Even though you know, I was not at that point in time actively suicidal or anything. And her it was a it was a really big overreaction on her part. I didn't stay with her for very long after that, you know, she basically obligated me to come back and do more therapy sessions or war, I was worried that she was going to send people to lock me up. So one of the things that happened was, I decided not to do medication, and that was pretty rough. And I am not telling anybody not to do medication. That would be irresponsible of me, it would be outside of my experience. I am not a licensed medical professional. So I'm not saying that I'm saying it, and people get upset with me all the time. When I say I didn't want to do medication. And if I'm not even going to give my reasons for not wanting to do medication, particularly SSRIs. But I didn't want to do it. But people get really upset with me. And like, well, medication saved my life or medication was fantastic. I didn't say it couldn't get variable people have gotten just like just apoplectic with me for saying I didn't want to do medication. As if I were telling them what to do. I'm not at all you do what you do, you do what is best for you. You are the only person who can make that choice. I am all about empowering people. I work with people I know people I talk with to exercise free will and free choice. I think it's good for people to to be educated for people to get information. However, that in itself is really challenging because there is so much disinformation out there. And they do remember, I remember talking to this therapist that I fired rather quickly. Who was like, Well, you've been depressed for a really long time you need to go on medication. I'm like, Well, you're not a doctor, you can't prescribe medication and I decided not to do medication. And I don't really want to talk about this anymore. She's like, well, you need to stop reading blogs. And like, first of all, you're assuming I got my information from blogs. And I am actually an academic, I have two master's degrees. And I read research for fun. And I have a subscription to JSTOR, which is a,

you know, a repository of academic research. And if I read an article from a non academic source that cites a study, I go read the study, so don't make assumptions about me. Really, you know, I did complain. I did lodge a complaint. She was not a good therapist. And she had really, really overstepped her license, in my opinion. And again, this is not to say, this is not me saying any people shouldn't do Medicaid. I'm not like that at all. What I'm saying is, she's not qualified to make that recommendation. And she was misinformed about a lot of things but felt really confident should some serious Dunning Kruger going on. Anyway, I digress. So I was in a personal crisis and personal psychological crisis, personal emotional crisis, I had lost something like 60 pounds. In a in under two months. I couldn't eat, I wasn't sleeping. Things were really rough. And I was doing everything I could I was going to therapy. I was exercising, I was meditating. And one day, in the depths of everything that was going on, and I was meditating. And I heard a very clear sounding male voice from outside of my head, say, you need to learn shamanism. That was it. And it felt really compelling. So I don't know if it was completely made up. Or if it was Spirit speaking to me, I still think it's spirits speaking to me to this day, because at the time I didn't know anything about shamanism. I didn't know what shamanism was. I had heard the word and it wasn't as popular then as it is today. So I thought to myself, Well, geez, I live in Maine. How the heck am I going to learn shamanism? How am I going to find a teacher? I don't live in Mongolia or Siberia or Peru. I live in the state of Maine. Are there even any shamans here? Interesting thing. There are many shamans here in the state of Maine. The shamanic community in Maine is both large and vibrant. And another sip of coffee which is a still quite, quite hot. Yeah, interesting for such a sparsely populated state, which is happens to be the least diverse state in the nation. And also has the oldest population in the nation, which tells you about us. We're a bunch of old people living alone in the woods. Or a bunch of old white people living alone in the woods. That is that describes Maine to you. But there's a large shamanic community here. Isn't that weird? I still don't know what to attribute that to other than people here live very close to nature. It doesn't matter. Yeah, we live in houses and we have internet and cable and electricity and stuff. But most people who live in Maine are you know, we live we don't live most people don't live in cities. You know, we have a couple of small cities. Not too many. And even then, even if you're in the city, even if you live in Portland, there are will there's wilderness in the middle of the city. You can you know, there are hiking trails through the woods. In the middle of the city. It's not like Central Park in New York or the common in Boston, which is like, you know, some greenery and some nicely planted plants and stuff. We're talking honest to goodness woods. There are a couple places I've been hiking in within the city limits of Portland. A couple of interesting trails there. One with a waterfall. Interestingly enough So anyway, I found my teacher, I found my teacher and started training in shamanism. And I trained with her for quite a long time, many years, I did a year long apprenticeship, I did a two year, a two year initiatory training.

I trained in soul retrieval with her. And I did two years of teacher training with her. So more than five years of training longer than Well, longer than it took me to get to Master's degrees. So kind of, I guess, kind of PhD level training and shamanism did go quite deep. And, you know, teacher training is a whole other whole other animal. And so is the initiatory, to your initiatory program was quite deep work. And work on the self, you know, that's the thing with shamanism is that you necessarily have to work on yourself. If you go into shamanism, thinking, I'm just going to I'm going to take a class, and I'm going to start working with people. And I'm above all of that self work, you are going to have a rude awakening, a quite rude awakening. So the resurgence or the surge in interest in shamanism, I'm going to attribute to a number of factors. One factor is the the fact that we have are going through a large global shift right now. The world is seems very divided right now. That is a phase, we will come through the other side of this and we will be better for it. At some point. It might happen in such a slow fashion that we don't even recognize it happening. Think about, you know, when I think about how much the culture in the US has changed since I was a kid in the 70s Let alone when my parents were kids in the 50s. And their parents were kids in the 20s and 30s. My grandmother, my grandmother is about to turn 106 Holy smokes, Has she seen some stuff, Has she seen some change in not just technologically but in the culture. You know, it's interesting where I grew up, there were there are still a lot of people of French Canadian descent. And I was you know, one generation away from a lot of people who spoke French as a primary language in the home. So I have a friend whose mom who spoke French with his mom until till he had to go to kindergarten. And that's much rarer. Once in a great while I will hear older people speaking this really interesting version of Canadian, French, you know, Quebec, wah French, which is still even changed beyond that. Because it, you know, became into a came into the US in the late 1800s, early 1900s and was spoken in kind of ghetto communities and Mill Towns and so they're the accents and the phrases and the slang are all really interesting. Anyway, our culture is going through a huge shift. We're going through lots of global individual tribal crises at the moment. And that is pushing this impulse for peace people to awaken so many people are coming to me currently well I just I feel called I feel called to learn shamanism I have my plate of students I mentoring is just about full. I don't know that I can handle too many more at this point. Although I love I love teaching shamanism more than anything else I do. Um, and at some point we'll probably get into teaching it again. I was teaching groups, pre pandemic, and I'm probably will get back to that at some point in the near future, which would be pretty, pretty fun. I really, really loved doing that before. I taught mostly intro classes but

coffee's getting tolerable, and temperature. Excuse me, it's delicious, though. So, so that's happening. The other thing the other two components that I think are causing this awakening in shamanism is one is there is wider acceptance and adoption of plant medicines. Now, to be quite clear, not all shamanism involves plant medicine. If you don't know what I'm talking about plant medicine. I'm talking about psychedelics traditionally use psychedelics like ayahuasca and magic mushrooms, psilocybin and peyote and fly agaric mushrooms and substances like that, which are used by some shamanic cultures. Well, that stuff has become really popular again, and there's a lot of research going on and psychedelic medicine for treating trauma, trauma again coming up. And there are a lot of there are a heck of a lot of people doing Ayahuasca recreationally, not I practice I recommend, I'm not saying don't do Ayahuasca or any other substance, I'm saying. Do it carefully do it in ceremony, make sure the person you people have died. People have died and wound up hospitalized from doing Ayahuasca there are you know, it is not? It is not a completely harmless, safe substance, all things have side effects. It is, in my opinion, much more dangerous than psilocybin. Is there a senator but I don't I mean, I don't journey with psychedelics I teach people how to journey without them would not be legal for me to be journeying with psychedelics, it would not be legal for me to be leading people. So not only is just not part of my tradition. You know, if I came from a tribal culture where these substances were part of ceremony and ritual and have been part of the culture for a long time, that would be different. But anyway, this stuff has become really popular, which has interested people in exploring the psychedelic landscape of shamanism. So those two things have happened. So the other thing that I think is driving this is this movement away from religiosity, toward but towards spirituality. There's this huge demographic movement away from organized religion in the United States, with the fastest growing segment of people identifying themselves as spiritual but not religious. And shamanism is spirituality. But it's not a religion in the sense that it's not an organized religion. There's no doctrine or dogma there. There are organizations for teaching and studying shamanism, but there's not you know, there's no hierarchical you're a priest, you're a church, you know, whatever. There's no there's nothing like that out there. Now, I, I have, I have become ordained so that I can perform ceremonies legally. You can't, you cannot. As far as I know, nobody is ordaining shamans, but I'm also studying. I'm studying for another ordination at the moment, which will take a little while. But I'm getting in. I'm going through an advanced degree program studying metaphysics along with a theological seminary which will result in you know, me getting ordained into a metaphysical church. So, I don't know what I'll do with that yet. But probably, you know, I'm not interested necessarily in starting like, Church of shamanism are something that seems outside of the tradition, but if I if I lead ceremony, it will be informed by my shamanic background and all of that stuff. So we'll see what happens from there. So anyway, people are moving towards spirituality but away from organized religion and shamanism is not an organized religion, but it contains.

You know, it contains ways to become spiritually connected, connected with a community, it, it has many of the things that religion offers, and a lot of the things that people who don't want to be religious don't are rejecting are missing from shamanism, right, the judgment and the dogma and, you know, this isn't, you know, I realized I'm painting religion with a really broad brush, and I don't, I'm not, I don't mean to be bashing anybody's religion. That is not what I'm trying to do. I'm talking about the movement, what's going on psychographically demographically, and why this is happening.

So anyway

so this movement towards spirituality, you know, we see this with people, you know, doing yoga and meditation, and we see lots of Westerners taking a Buddhism and, you know, that sort of thing. But one of the things about shamanism is that it's so old that it predates modern, any modern existing language. It predates any modern existing religion. It predates civilization. Right, it pre, you know, it predates writing. Because we have archaeological records, but not a lot of written records. We have a lot of oral traditions as well, but not a lot of written stuff. So it predates it, you know, by 1000s and 1000s, maybe 10s, maybe hundreds of 1000s of years, predates all of that. So my personal take, is that we all have shamanic ancestors, all of us. Shamanism is our birthright. And recent EEG research shows that the shamanic state of consciousness is unique, but shared among practitioners. So shamanic practitioners who are using drums to journey all go into the same state of the same brainwave state. That but it's completely different than anything else. So this is regardless of any demographic information. So shamanic journeying, shamanic state of consciousness, I'm gonna say it's in our DNA. I'm gonna say that it's, we haven't found a shaman gene. It's probably universal, but the ability for our brains to produce the shamanic state seems universal, this unique state. Why? Well, you know, it would make sense that we evolved to produce that shamanic state. That shamanic practice served an evolutionary purpose it sure as heck did because shamans were the doctors and the psychologists and the people who predicted the weather and people who told you when to plant corn, or where to hunt the or rocks or you know, what have you. And so, the Shaman was, you know, one of the most important functions or functionaries in any tribal group necessary to its survival. And if you didn't have somebody who could heal the sick and tell you which plants were safe to eat, or where to find shelter, or where to when to hunt, or those kinds of things. Your tribe didn't survive. You didn't pass your genes on. So the shamanic you know, the shamanic Maybe someday we'll figure out the genetics of it, I don't know. But that role is in our, and I mean, our everybody, I do not exclude a single person on this planet. When I say that shamanism is your birthright if you this isn't to say that everybody should practice shamanism. I'm not saying that at all. In fact, I would say the opposite I would say that shamanism is not for everyone.

You know, it is a difficult path for one thing. And it's, you know, it's not a go to church on Sunday kind of thing. It is beyond a full time job. It affects every area of your life. In one way or another, it affects every relationship you have, in one way or another. The practice of shamanism fundamentally changes who you are. But we do need a lot more people on this planet, to be beacons of spiritual light, which is a term that I use with my students in particular. And when I say that I'm doing when I when I what I am doing when I'm teaching is that I am trying to light the flame of this person's soul so that they become the beacon of spiritual light they were meant to be, which just means they show up in the world, whether they wind up working as a shamanic practitioner or not, or just working on themselves or just journeying for friends and family or whatever they do. The practice of shamanism changes how you show up in the world. And it does, you know, it makes it puts you in touch with nature, it puts you in touch with the earth. It puts you in touch with other beings. It makes you more empathetic. So, so, this is not to say that everybody who practices shamanism is a fantastic person. That would be prejudice on my part. In fact, I have been in a relationship with somebody who was a shamanic practitioner who went to being quite abusive. And so no, not everybody is who studied shamanism. But that being said, Is it moves the needle it moves people towards being better citizens of the Earth, towards being better friends, better parents, better spouses better all of those things. And it can turn you into somebody who is is a helping person. Somebody who helps others through healing, work through divination, work, whatever it happens to be. So one of the things one thing I want to touch on briefly before I wrap this up is this this is happening less than less and which is good as people become more educated. But I have been accused from time to time of cultural appropriation I have there are people who have used quite pejorative terms about what I do. People who don't know what I do, what I teach what I study, people have no idea whatsoever, yet are very happy to ignorantly tell me that what I'm doing is wrong because of some reason that isn't true. Only in their head. But there is their art. There are problems with cultural appropriation or what I call cultural misappropriation. All cultures borrow, in fact, the word shaman, you know, people say oh, that's not your word. It comes from the tongue just people of Siberia, sure, but they didn't make the word up and the word exists in Chinese Sanskrit Pali Hebrew air Aramaic. We don't know who invented that word. So calm down. Okay? And the fact that you think that it originated there means you have you don't know. So trying to tell me that you are morally superior because of an opinion that is based in ignorance. I'm not being pejorative here, but it is ignorance, lack of knowledge that you're basing your opinion on.

But if I were this, you know, something I will never do. I will never put on buckskins and adopt a Native American name and go out and pretend to do Native American ceremony. Now, people have accused me of stealing Native American religious practices. I do not do that. That's like accusing me of murdering Lincoln. You know, I wasn't around, I didn't do it. Somebody else did it. And we know who did it.

And I make it very, very clear when I teach people. I'm like, I am not. Some people think that shot. First of all, Native American tribes, not all of them are shamanic. And not all Native American ceremonies are shamanic. Some are, some are not. And while I have academic books about Native American shamanism I don't replicate Native American ceremonies, that would be problematic, unless now I know people who are native, who are pipe carriers for tribes who are in fact, Caucasian. And we could argue the appropriateness of that, but I would not be arguing from a place of intelligence. But these are people who tribal elders gave the right to conduct certain ceremonies. But I digress. I don't do that. I don't do things that I don't have a right to teach, or don't have knowledge of. And I also don't pretend, like I come from a culture that I don't that's the other part of the thing. You know, people you know, they're definitely they're definitely problems with. I've witnessed, at least online, people in Portugal, doing a quote unquote, shamanic initiation on a young boy, surrounded by Celtic idols and imagery, wearing a patchy war bonnets. And I'm like, What's going on here? Oh, they're doing it. It's shamanic initiation. Isn't that beautiful? And like, I don't, I don't know, why are these are these people Apache? Why are they? Why are they wearing Apache regalia? Why would people wearing Apache regalia be surrounding themselves with Celtic symbols? They just like threw all of these cultural things together to seem more special or you know, whatever. And that really is misappropriation. I don't think they these people, it didn't seem like they were intending harm. But that doesn't mean it was okay. And I did call them out. I'm like, Look, I don't know what you're doing. But you seem like white European people to me. And if that is true, if you are not, you know, part of this tribe or allowed to be wearing these things, you probably shouldn't Plus, you're confusing a whole bunch of like stuff from, you know, new. You're calling it shamanic. But you've got this, these war bonnets and you've got these Celtic symbols around you and you've got this and you've got that and all of these things. The flip side to this is there. There are people who have called me out for talking about Celtic shamanism, saying, There's no such thing as Celtic shamanism, and that is crap. It's bullcrap. And there are people who are quote unquote experts in Irish literature or whatever who talk about there's no you know, there's no Celtic. There's no Celtic shamanism. Well, because they didn't read the they didn't use that word. The word shaman in Gaelic, but there were certainly shamanic practices, there were certainly people doing shamanic things. And the Celts were a large, a very large group and not monolithic, group. And, you know, spread, you know, loose collection of tribes that was sort of bound by like, you know, somewhat common languages. And certain skills like they were, the Celts were expert metal workers and things like that. And we think of them as Irish, you know, Irish and Scottish and Welsh these days. But the vast majority, that's just where the last Celts wound up living, but there were Celts throughout Europe. And they interacted with people from all over who were definitely shamanic, the Norse for one thing.

Norse people, not just Vikings, the Viking era was a very short period of time, amongst the Norse, but there nor the Norse people and and, you know, Celtic people definitely interacted and so did lots of, you know, lots of other tribes. So there would have been cultural sharing. So it just makes no sense to me to think of that plus we have, you know, we have legends of shape shifting holy people, which is predominantly shamanic. Anyway. One of the reasons I talked about trauma in the beginning and crisis and this driving people in is that shamans have been working with trauma for 1000s of years. And yes, there's a lot of new research in trauma and treating trauma and all that sort of thing. And hopefully this gets better and better and better. But I think it can be informed by how shamanic peoples work with trauma. And the trauma. The shamanic treatment for trauma is called Soul Retrieval. It's a type of ceremony that restores what people perceive as a fractured self, which is very much what happens you're very much in alignment with modern theories on trauma. I think the psychological community and the shamanic community are talking about the same things. But using different language. It says if I were describing trauma in French, or I were describing trauma in English, it would speak about those things using different terms. But we're talking about the same thing. In this case, it's a different perspective. It's a spiritual perspective versus a potentially medical perspective. We still don't medically we still don't fully understand trauma, we know that it is extremely complex that the body is involved. There's somatic stuff happening, there's stuff happening with the vagus nerve, there's, you know, stuff stored in our body, we do things like armoring and all kinds of stuff. So you know. But, you know, hopefully, you know, we're seeing again, we're seeing this psychedelic research going on with trauma treatment, and I'm encouraged by that. Typically with entheogenic compounds like psilocybin. Anyway, just want to talk a little bit about the resurgence in the interest in shamanism trauma crisis, why this is happening. And I will, with that, I hope you are I hope you're doing well and I will talk to you real soon.

Announcer 59:37

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's MAINESHAMAN.com.

Ep50 The Importance of Community in Shamanism with Mary Katherine Spain

Announcer 0:28

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:46

Hey, everybody, we have a very, very special episode today. And I'm recording this in video as well as audio.

So you can also you'll also be able to check this out on YouTube once it gets up there. And today I have a very, very special guest, a dear friend of mine and also a partner in an endeavor, which we're going to talk about, which is pretty exciting.

And we're going to talk all about community, spiritual community and shamanism, and so stay tuned. But without further ado, my guest today is my friend Mary, Katherine Spain. She is I don't know, I'll let you describe yourself a little bit but you are a shamanic teacher and practitioner like myself and probably a bazillion other other things. How would you describe yourself Mary Katherine?

Mary Katherine Spain 1:44

Oh, wow. Um, I think from an archetypal point of view, I would say I'm a create tricks because I like to create things, whether it's classes or ceremony or shaman D. Just a lot of cool collaborations going on in my life right now. I, as you know, John, my background is in shamanic technique and skills. I also have a Reiki background. And in my healing sessions, I tend to sort of mix the two. I, I call it enlightened energy work, because I honestly never know if it's a shamanic thing coming through or if it's Reiki or if they're just dancing together. I also get a lot of intuitive hits during a healing session. And so I think somebody described that to me as your Oh, you're an intuitive healer. And I was like, Oh, well, I've never heard of that before. But okay. And so yeah, I do that. I also am a writer. I've

written a memoir and a novel, they're not published, but I have written them. And I'm working on a sort of a guidebook that explains and interprets the nine pillars of the divine feminine, which is the name of my business, nine pillars healing. And the nine pillars are,

way to embody the principles of the Divine Feminine as downloaded to me from Athena. So she's one of my guides. And I want to say the new moon in October 2018. Why do I remember that because when you get a download from Athena, that encompasses the nine pillars of the divine feminine, you don't forget what day it was. And she started telling me that these are the principles that we must man and woman must start to embody in order to bring not only the earth back to balance, but to bring humanity back to balance so I went with that and renamed my my business from Clan of origin healing to nine pillars healing. And so I'm writing that book as well right now I'm on chapter five. I'm looking at my to do list over here.

Up to chapter five on that, and then I also run a small farm with my husband Michael here in house name.

John Moore 4:24

Yeah, I was gonna say you are the busiest human being I know probably. And Creatrix tricks is a good good word because you're always you always seem to have something something interesting going on. Something different. You do a lot of stuff, which I think is really cool. And if anybody has never sat down to write or try to write a book, gosh, what what an under what an undertaking. That is i i also have a couple books in the works. and wrote, well, I wrote something non spiritual and you know, 2016 now as a co author, and wow, what a lot of work.

Mary Katherine Spain 5:16

We're gonna have a whole other podcast on that process, right?

John Moore 5:20

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And we've known each other at least a few years. I think we must have met in a class somewhere. If I if that is correct.

Mary Katherine Spain 5:33

I wouldn't you know, I think it may have been at a solstice gathering at the Maine Audubon. Do you remember that?

John Moore 5:41

Yes. I absolutely do remember that. Yeah. It was a winter solstice. at Audubon, because I had done a but I think we met before that, didn't we at in one of Dorries classes or something? I don't know. Maybe, maybe I don't, maybe but yeah, I was definitely at that winter solstice. gathering at the autobahn. It was it was a fun fun, we did a dispatch show. And there was a big fire in the back I took some some cool photos of the fire that was like Dragon shapes coming out of the fire. And it was that was

Mary Katherine Spain 6:22

I was I've never done anything like that at the main autobahn. And I was very excited that they were posting something like that, you know? Yeah. So very cool. Yeah,

John Moore 6:33

it's a cool place. So main, if you if you're not familiar, because we have people listen all over the world here. means in the northeast of the US, it's very rural and forested. We have a couple of small cities and lots of towns in the Maine Audubon is just in this really beautiful area in Falmouth, Maine and their facility there is super pretty nice place to go for a hike and or I guess people snowshoe there and I don't know if they cross country ski and stuff, too. But we Yeah, there was a solstice event with another shamanic teacher. I don't know how many years ago that was. Now there's a few

Mary Katherine Spain 7:20

that you know, speaking of what we have in Maine here i i would like to offer. I feel so deeply grateful that there's such an active and vital shamanic community here in Maine. Do you do you find that it's it's sort of the like, you know, primo top notch as far as shamanic community scale?

John Moore 7:43

Yeah, it's so it's so strange, given that we are such a small state with such a small population. And you know, finding not just the amount of shamanism going on here and the number of shamanic practitioners here in Maine is huge. But also some really amazing teachers here. So great teachers, great community. There's lots of events going on here. I've tons and tons of shamanic friends from Maine, and I'm glad you brought up the word community because that's what we're going to that's kind of what we're going to talk about today. But yeah, when I when I started out in shamanism, you know, I got this, I got a message from spirit, it was very clear it was it was actually verbal that said, you need to, you need to study shamanism. And I had no idea I didn't know really what shamanism was, or anything. And my first thought was, I live in Maine. How's that going to happen? I don't live in Peru. I don't live in Mongolia. How am I going to learn shamanism here in Maine, and lo and behold, this is a great place to learn shamanism. There's so much going on here. And I know people from so I have I have students all over the world. And I have clients all over the world, as I know you do as well. And even in some places in I find even especially in big cities. You know, I've I've students in New York and Las Vegas and California and clients all over and they're like, I don't know anyone else. I don't know a single soul who practices shamanism, other than me. Right. And that feels really weird to me, given were given the bounty of community that we have here in our tiny little state.

Mary Katherine Spain 9:45

Yeah, right. And I also think that it's probably, you know, not the first thing that you offer to someone when you meet them or you know, you don't like advertise on a t shirt I practice shamanism, it's, it's, it's coming around to, I think be more readily acceptable and, and more importantly, maybe more understood on a vast level of of people. It used to be, you know, 20 years ago, something that you would never I used to work at a medical office, you would never mention, at, you know, the office, oh, on the weekends, I go drum and, you know, journey and my power animal like people would be like, what? And I think that's changing for you.

John Moore 10:38

Yeah, I mean, for sure. It's interesting, the people who the people who contact me for shamanic services, shall I say, come from such a wide background, it's surprising. You know, some have to be careful, I don't give away personal details of of clients or anything. But the fact that people people reach out to me for all kinds of things like I'm doing a ceremony, I'm not performing a wedding, I can't perform weddings, but some I'm performing a ceremony for a wedding later this year. And you know, as part of the whole wedding weekend thing, they wanted somebody to come up and do ceremony and blessing and that sort of thing. And this is like somebody who's an ad exec from the, you know, not even from this state, they happen to be getting married here. And, you know, people, people from all walks of life now are are learning. It's not just as weirdos in the woods with our drums and that sort of thing. And yeah, it is becoming well, it is becoming better known and more widely accepted. It can be a little hard for people to get their brains around because shamanism isn't a religion, right? So people want to because it's spiritual, and it is very involved. It is my, my spiritual practice is shamanism. You know, yes, there's stuff blended from my ancestral cultures in there. But, you know, it's not, it's not like I go to church, and there's an organized thing. And so that can be a little hard for people who grew up in a western world to get their brands around a little bit where our spiritual life tends to be very separate. You know, I grew up going, you know, going to church on Sundays, right with my grandmother, and then with my mom, and that was it. Right? That was your, that was your spirit, troll. thing that you did two hours and

Mary Katherine Spain 12:52

hours of spirit every week. Right? Right, an

John Moore 12:54

hour to two of spirit every week. And then you, you know, went home and and ate a roast beef or something. Right. That was that was kind of that was kind of, oh my god, yes, that was kind of it. And I know tons of people who that's their, you know, that's still how they are. But that's normal for you know, kind of, I don't want to say I grew up in a normal world, I don't want to say like, my way is the way but in my experience, that is a very normal experience in this culture that, that, you know, that's kind of it. So if for something, you know, for people who don't know, when you get into shamanism, it starts living through you more than you're doing something,

Mary Katherine Spain 13:37

right? Yes, absolutely. It's definitely more visceral. And there's, like, I am fond of saying, the church is the land, like when I walk my land. That mantra always comes up the church is the land, the church is the land, the church is the land. And it makes so much sense to me. It's, you know, for 1000s and 1000s, and 1000s of years before Jesus showed up, they were worshipping outside, and it wasn't just Sunday at 11 o'clock. It was for several occasions and of course, seasonal things would happen, the stars, all kinds of interactions with the natural world in a dynamic way that created what you know, the spiritual juice of their lives. So I'm that resonates with me, I feel. You know, I too, was raised in a Baptist and both Baptist and the Presbyterian household in North Carolina in the 70s So yeah, we we went to church every week, if not twice a week, sometimes it was Wednesday night, you know, fellowship. Although I don't go to church now. I'm actually sad so grateful that as a child, I got the foundation that being spiritual was important. Like, that was something that, that we would not be sacrificing. You know, like, my dad would have to be really, really, really sick not to go to church. We were there every week. And so it imprinted on me that, you know, paying attention to devotion and sacredness and song and ways to pray and ways to do fellowship. It did imprint me hugely. So I'm grateful for it.

John Moore 15:42

Yeah, I am as well. And though I don't you know, I don't go to church. I don't identify as Christian, I certainly appreciate my, my, my Sunday school background, my grandmother was a Sunday school teacher, my mother is a Sunday school teacher, where she lives now in the south. And my grandmother was a Sunday school teacher, she had a great deal of influence on my thinking about spirituality. And I've told this told the story before, you know, my grandmother, one of the most influential things anybody had ever said to me in my life about spirit. And my grandmother is very, very religious person. Somebody asked her about heaven and hell, and she said, You know, when I'm when I'm angry with somebody, when I'm feeling hateful feelings when I'm, you know, just, just not, you know, treating somebody, another person, like, they're a human being and whatever. That's, I'm in hell that like, That's hell for me. That's, you know, right, right here right now. But when I'm kind and when I'm loving, and when I'm, you know, being beneficent towards other people, that's when I'm in heaven right here right now. And so, you know, wasn't thinking about the Oh, I'm gonna get my reward when I'm dead kind of thing. It was very much about how we create heaven and hell for ourselves right here in this lifetime.

Mary Katherine Spain 17:19

So beautiful. Oh my god, I love that I've gotten a tear. Am I actually?

John Moore 17:26

Yeah, and, and my grandmother is about to turn 106. So she's clearly doing something, right. She I will say here's the secret. Never. I don't know if this is a secret but never touched a drop of alcohol or smoked in her life and eats oatmeal every single day for 106 years. So I swear they should have the Quaker Oats. People should sponsor my grandmother. 106 Yeah. Should be 106 next month.

Mary Katherine Spain 18:02

Good for her. Longevity right there.

John Moore 18:05

Yeah, yeah, I hope I'm just you know, fingers crossed. I got those genes. Been around for a while. But one of the things that I noted that, you know, just coming back to community that was always really important for my grandmother and my mother, who are big churchgoers was, you go to the service, you know, whatever. And you do your Bible study and all of those things. But it was it was a social outlet, or it is a social outlet for them. And it is it is a community and I know so my mom lives. You know, my mom lives in South Carolina. I live in Maine, it's quite a quite a long distance. And, you know, she's obviously older, she's in good health and whatever. But my stepdads had some issues my grandmother lives with her has had certainly she's 106 and has had issues. And I would be much more concerned and worried about her if she didn't have the community of her church around her. Yes. And so these are people who will, you know, in an instant, drop, whatever, and come to help if, if help is needed. And there are people who will, you know, if my mom's doing something will look in on my grandmother, or, you know, all of these kinds of things. And when my mom lived up here in Maine, you know, that was a huge, huge community. And I always liked that part. When I went to when I did go to church, I wasn't as as like sleeping in on Sundays. I wasn't always that great about it. When I especially when I got old when I was a kid, there was no choice but when I got older, I like to sleep in. But I liked the fact that there was that component like you went and you did the service and there was always you know, what did they call it fellowship there was oh, His fellowship afterwards where people gathered and and just talked and I don't know, you know, I don't know how people do shamanic gatherings in other places. But around here there is always that component. There's always the we're going to eat lunch together, we're going to hit the snack table to get a snack tables are big in shamanism, by the way. I always have always have snacks and Spirit loves chocolate. That was tell people,

Mary Katherine Spain 20:27

right? Yes, yes. I was just thinking, John, while you were talking about community. My good friend Paul, who lives right around the corner here in Leamington. He and myself and Amy, who all studied with Dory Cody, our main one of our main teachers here in Maine. Paul Allen and I and Amy decided that we would create a monthly group that would meet so we wouldn't have to keep going to, to, you know, pay different teachers to sit in circle like it was, yeah, the idea of like, we're going to create a learning space but also the fellowship space. We're going to base it on shamanism, meaning the prerequisite was that you had to to know how to journey and you had to be able to physically get to Leamington because we met at Paul's house. He lives on a beautiful piece of property. I don't know if you've ever been there, John, it is gorgeous. But one side of the property is the ossipee river. And it meets up with the SOCO. And so we called the group confluence, because these two rivers converged with each other in a confluence and I'm getting chills just talking about it because it was a very powerful spot to hold, you know, sacred space and time together. So we would meet on Sundays at 12. And we would end around 230 Or three, we'd have an opening fire, we would have counsel and check in, we do a journey or maybe two, we talk about the journeys, and then we would eat it was a potluck. Everybody brought something to eat. And oh my goodness, it was amazing how how big it grew like that was in November of 2012. And although I don't go every single month anymore, that group is still going strong.

John Moore 22:46

Wow. That's That's amazing. Yeah,

Mary Katherine Spain 22:48

that is moving. Yeah,

John Moore 22:50

very cool. Very cool. Yeah.

Mary Katherine Spain 22:53

Yeah. And so eating after you do a bunch of shamanic work. I feel like it not only grounds you, when we commune with each other, when there's food involved. We are like nourishing our bodies, but also doing something that everybody needs to do. Like, we it's relatable like I brought this how did you make that? Oh, this is so tasty. Oh, you know, like, it's a it's the glue sometimes. Yeah, food as well. Right? Food is love.

John Moore 23:30

Well, I also I think about how many how many spiritual traditions involve the involved food involve eating, right eating or drinking or both. From communion, to you know, traditional feasting to where they call them blots and Scandinavian religion to you know, all kinds of things that involve feasts right feasts are a big deal have always been a big deal pre Christian Christian. There's the breaking of fasts in Islam, there's the UN I forget what that is called. And Judaism certainly there's the Passover Seder, there's all you know, all kinds of sacred traditions have the sharing of food or some sort of consuming something eating something as part of spiritual practice and they do think that it is one way to embody spirit that the food that you're sharing in obviously in communion gets transubstantiated right into the actual body of Christ and blood of Christ. But it's imbued if when you're sharing a meal after some doing something sacred, it's imbued with that energy as you describe it, you're nourishing your body and you're nourishing your your, your spirit as well. Yeah, absolutely. I want to go back to the idea of Oh, go ahead. I'm sorry.

Mary Katherine Spain 25:04

I was just saying I and I love to cook. So it's always fun to show up with something that I know is like one of my, you know, favorite recipes or something that now came out of the garden. In fact, John, you would appreciate this. We're starting a YouTube channel for the farm. And the videos are me making recipes from items out of the farm share box. So like, yeah, we'll get the farm share box. And then they're like, Oh, what am I going to do with collard greens? So now they there comes the box comes with a QR code that takes you to our YouTube channel, and I'm cooking action. So it's, it's a live recipe, if you will.

John Moore 25:52

That's brilliant. I love that. I'll have to check that out. Because I don't think I've ever cooked collard greens. So you have a collard green recipe, I will definitely check that out. And I'll say that you make a mean Putin Eska. We had Puttanesca at Mary Catherine's not that long ago. And I was she gave me a jar to bring home, which was delightful. And I got to share with my children who were like, This is awesome. You you have to you have to figure out how to make this so. So thank you for the Puttanesca

Mary Katherine Spain 26:28

I am happy to share that recipe. It's really easy.

John Moore 26:31

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my kids were like, This is so good. So it was it was great that I got to share that with them as well.

Mary Katherine Spain 26:39

That your girls like the little spice factor in that one.

John Moore 26:43

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, they do. Like it's interesting. I I always like spicy food. I can't eat it as spicy as I used to now that I'm getting older, but the girls like super spicy stuff. So yeah, they do like the spice factor in there. So anything like Puttanesca or Fra Diavolo sauce or you know, whatever is

Mary Katherine Spain 27:10

Yeah, I can't go on but yeah,

John Moore 27:13

yeah, we started them when they were when they were first able to eat solid food we started them on on Indian food quite early. So they got used to having lots of different spices and stuff. And of course we always had their their have Filipina so they lots of Filipino food as well. So well that's good stuff. But I want to go back to something you mentioned just the idea of sitting in circle, right. And some people might, you know, obviously you can get the idea of people sitting around in a circle. But when we just when we say that in you know referring to like a shamanic gathering when we sit in circle and well I'll just add that doesn't always have to be physical you can sit in circle virtually and at a distance from people and but anyway, I want I wanted to ask you to talk a little bit about what it means to sit in circle. Not just sitting physically in a circle but what what do you do like what do you what's an I know but this is for my you know, obviously I've sat in a few circles but for people who might not know.

Mary Katherine Spain 28:28

Right? A couple of things come to mind actually. First of all, I think when you create sacred space we all have our you know particular protocols and rituals to create sacred space for me that would be burning some sweet grass and sage or maybe some sage and cedar I was told once by an elder over in New Hampshire, Native American elder that to balance the masculine and feminine principles inside you want to burn sage and cedar together and I did not know that the cedar is for the feminine and the sage is more masculine. So now after that conversation with grandmother Sasa I try to burn sage and cedar together. Anyway, I then you know call and the directions and that sets the space for

you know, the deep dive the speaking from the heart. And that was the other point I wanted to bring up. I just took a training with Amis Valley institute that focused on the art of counsel, which, you know, people have been sitting around in circles for a long, long, long time.

And again, Native American tradition counsel, is speaking from the heart Listening with the ears of the heart being brief, and then being spontaneous. So those are the four cornerstones of counsel the way that I just learned it from the Animus Valley Institute. So I kind of have started to incorporate that with at least check in. Because sometimes, you know, if you have a big group of folks sitting around for sacred space, and maybe you're going to do a ceremony, maybe you're going to journey together, you do want to do a little bit of check in because, you know, it's rough sledding out there, people have a lot on their mind. And you have to clear that out in order to show up more soulful Hills show up more able, and I want to say vulnerable to take your rightful seat at the spirit table, like, the guides want the full you. And so if you come in with a bunch of frustrations and complaints, and maybe you're tired, you just have to do that check ended to get things off your chest, and off your mind. And then something sort of settles right after check in, you move into a different speed, a different mode of communication. And, and relating to each other. More importantly, right. Yeah, what do you think?

John Moore 31:35

Yeah, so I, I think a lot about ceremony, I'm, I'm a bit of a ceremonial list. And then one of the things I love to do is, is designed ceremony and, and rituals as part of ceremony are really important. And as you allude to, there are a number of rituals that are performed in the ceremony, I guess we could call the overarching structure of a shamanic circle as a ceremony. And there are rituals in there. So the first is setting out sacred space. So that is both saying, this area that we're sitting in is now an area where we're doing sacred work, the time that we've entered, we've now begun to do sacred work. So this really, for me, sets the psycho spiritual tone that we are about to do something sacred. It's why there are, you know, you know, in almost any spiritual system, where there is devotional work or anything like that, there is a separate space where that's done, there's a church, but even within the church, there's an altar, and there's, you know, a Deus and you know, all of these things. And so there's so there's that there's the setting, setting up of sacred space as a way to sort of set intention, okay, now, we've stopped, we've left the ordinary world, and now we're entering into the spiritual world. And we're using the metaphors of time and space to work with our psychology there. And he made a really good point about check in. So if people don't know what, what, what happens in a lot of circles, is we'll just go around the circle, sometimes someone will pass a talking stick or something. And people will just take turns saying, usually what's going on with them. And particularly, if you're a group that meets regularly, you, you know, you're checking in with each other, this is what's going on with me, or if it's a group that's never met before, for sometimes you'll introduce yourself, I'm, you know, my name is John, I'm from here, blah, blah, blah. And I think you hit on something really important here. It's, it's another way to kind of unburden on unload on sort of like, Okay, now we're going to do something sacred, but I've got all this junk going on. I need to get it out there so that I can set it aside for a moment and I'm reminded of so I trained and I trained in martial arts for decades, I taught I taught for a couple of decades. And you know, we would always bow in when you come into study Japanese martial arts, you bow when you come into you take off your shoes, super important, right? You don't wear your street shoes in the sit in the training area. That's not just for cleanliness. It's symbolic of, I'm leaving the outside world over here with my shoes. I'm not tracking in the energy of the world into this space, which is sacred. And now I'm bowing and I'm beginning and entering into sacred space, so their sacred space that's marked by physical location. It's marked by a specific time period and it's marked by behave You're and there is a setting aside of stuff.

Mary Katherine Spain 35:07

That's really that's, I love that I love Japanese culture anyway. And I love the idea that your shoes are going to track in energy. I've never actually thought about that. That's really interesting. I also wanted to say while you were talking about checking, it also gives people that are listening and opportunity to witness I feel like with our modern culture, and you know, the cult of me and all of the, you know, dizzying selfies and all of this business about sort of, I don't know, the superficial visuals that we are inundated with, people have lost the art of deep listening and and witnessing, like, just sitting and listening to someone's story or where they're at. builds your compassion muscle, right and to not sit there and think about Oh, what am I going to say when it comes to me like just truly drink in another person's reality and what they're sharing, hopefully from their heart, right? Like the check in is not only about unburdening, like, all what's going on with me and my life, but things that are deeply Trump linked to people, right? They can, they can share that in that sacred space. Now that we've set the sacred space, things can be said that you you can't just say in passing in other, you know, venues. So the deeply deep deep listening and, and witnessing, I feel like creates a certain energy in the group, and allows other people as they listen to dive even deeper to reveal even more, you know,

John Moore 37:01

yeah, I feel like we could do an entire podcast episode on witnessing and probably we should, at some point, because it's, it's, it's an incredibly important topic. And the effect of witnessing on both the person being witnessed, and the person doing the witnessing is you you almost can't describe how powerful and effective this is, it seems really strange, but just being fully present with somebody. And as you alluded to, it's not that easy in today's world, because we don't do that we're in and, you know, most of us are inundated with social media, like these, just the sound bites, and we're listening to respond and the world is so fast, we don't just sit around and listen to each other stories anymore, or that often, most of us anyway, and the world that we live in. And you know, just speaking from the heart and speaking one's truth to people who are just accepting without judgment, and sitting and holding sacred space, and one of the things that I learned from our the teacher we have in common Dory, Cody is in circle, we don't rescue other people. So I might be having an incredibly emotional share, right, something might have come up even not just in the in the check in, but even you know, as we're doing ceremony or something, I might completely break down crying in the you know, and just be a mess. And our instinct, as good caring human beings is to rush in and rescue that person, oh, you're gonna be okay, and pat them on the back and all that sort of thing. And while that's good intentioned, that's also disempowering. It's also taking away this person's saying, you know, oh, you know, clearly it's not okay for you to be emoting this way. And I need to fix that for you. I'm going to come here, and I'm going to rescue you, when most people don't need that. But when you hold sacred space for them to rescue themselves, essentially, it's so empowering. And it goes the act of witnessing goes way, way beyond that. It's just it's just this beautiful, powerful thing. And so I'm very I definitely want to talk talk to you more about that. I think we could probably do more than an hour. We'll probably do a class on witnessing alone.

Mary Katherine Spain 39:48

Yes, and I will add to that the training I just referenced with animus Valley Institute. It was part learning about Council and also The the art of mirroring which is basically based on witnessing, you know, hearing someone's story. And in mirroring you tell their story back to them from the most passionate place from, from if you can add in some archetypal energies are or images stick language, you know poetry like you tell it back to them. And it is so powerful John, it's so powerful because first of all the other person that has told the story, hearing their story, as spoken to someone who has deeply listened to them. It's it's a very healing technique. It's unbelievable. And, and the story doesn't have to be anything, you know, extraordinary. It's the fact that someone listened to your story so deeply, and is now going to tell it back to you with little nuggets and metaphors that maybe you didn't see as the teller. Right? Oh, it's so powerful.

John Moore 41:05

Yeah. Oh, wow. Um, now I, you know, I've got goosebumps from from hearing that I could, I can totally see that. And what, you know, one of the things that I think gets communicated there is this sense of you are important, your story is important, your you are worthy of me taking in your story in a deep way. And we don't always communicate that. And that is, you know, for anybody who comes from a therapeutic background, there's research that something like 85 to 90% of the value of talk therapy comes actually from the relationship with the therapist, the techniques, you know, doesn't techniques schmeck makes I don't know, right? It's, it's not the, you know, the yeah, that's, that's important. But having somebody who deeply listens without judgment. And I love the idea of mirroring, I definitely want to learn more about that. That just sounds like such a beautiful, wonderful practice. And, and the phrase holding Council, I just, I love, I love every bit of that.

Mary Katherine Spain 42:29

Yes, yes. In fact, I can't, I can't wait to go on my next level to Mira training. Because ideally, I would like to be a guide, like, be someone who brings people here to Avalon and sets them out in in nature to have an encounter with Mother Earth. And then come back to circle, tell the story of that encounter, and then be the guide be the mirror to tell it back to them. I've sat in several circles like that with a couple of my mentors. It's just it's a game changer. It's so powerful. So deep.

John Moore 43:11

Yeah. Yeah. I love the metaphor, the metaphoric work as well. We, there's, I don't know why I keep coming to this. But there are, there are a number of therapeutic models, one is called AC T. And I can't remember what that stands for. I know a is acceptance, and something something. But basically, it takes the it takes the standpoint that humans actually learned through metaphor, right? We learned that through metaphor and simile like this is like this, like one of the universals. There, there aren't a whole lot. There are archetypes and things that are universal, but there aren't a whole lot of sort of, you know, completely universal metaphors. But all human beings, in every culture and every language, have a structure where something big is something important, right? So bigness and importance go hand in hand, in every culture in every language. And part of that comes from us, being fed by adults as babies and saying like, this is the source of our nourishment. And these are people who are bigger than me. So things that are big, are important. And it's it's almost so obvious that that it's easy to overlook that. But that's actually how we begin to learn everything is that this is like this. So there are all of these Association Yeah, associated associated memory associated, that sort of thing. So when you can walk into somebody's worlds, with metaphors, even if they're not their own metaphors, even if you're adding metaphoric and archetypal is, which is why archetypal work is so powerful because it is archetypal because ever it's stuff that everybody has. And I actually think the role of shaman actually think the role of shaman is archetypal that there is a shaman archetype, because it seems the role of shaman crops up throughout time and through you know across the word is not the same word in every culture shaman, you know different cultures have different words for that role. But that role is so important and it crops up and it crops up under the same circumstances, that I actually think it is archetypal. I think it is a very human endeavor shamanism. One of the reasons I love it so much is that it is so universal. It appears to be something that that crops up in pretty much every culture at some point. Even if they aren't still practicing. They did at some point.

Mary Katherine Spain 45:54

Yep, that this whole thing reminds me John of a message I received the other night in one of our journey circles with shaman D. that and I can I can share this because it was my journey. The Celtic or Welsh poet, Taliesin came to me in the journey. And he said, All shamans are storytellers. And I was like, it was like, of course, like to really share wisdom. If you want to infuse someone with wisdom, if you want to wise point, I call it wise pointing. You tell them a story. Because first of all that draws them in. And I feel like anecdotes have just powerful ways to allow people to connect on that level that you're talking about that association metaphor, you know, all of those things are universal. And so I love thinking about every shaman as a storyteller. Yeah, I agree with that. I'm totally down with that. Yeah.

John Moore 47:03

I'm done with that as well. Yeah, there are and I mean, I love stories anyway, but particularly the ones that make me laugh. Like if there's even even if the topic is like really serious. And I don't want to I can't share the sexual story because it's not mine. But the last time I saw our, our teacher Dory in person, I mean, we've we've talked to her over video, but the last time I was in her space, she told me a story about being with her mother when her mother died. And it had such a funny ending. That I bet that I belly laugh, even though it was a very serious moment. Oh, you know, what was happening at the time and whatever. There was just this poignant. There was just this poignant moment in the story that made us there were a few of us there that we all just started belly laughing. It was, it was it was just a hilarious moment. And I actually the the line that she told me that came from her mother, and I won't I won't repeat it, because again, it's her story. I'm like, that should be the title of your memoir, actually. So I don't I don't know what it I don't know what the title of her I know. She's writing her memoir, which I'm I'm anxiously waiting for. But

Mary Katherine Spain 48:28

yeah, next week, so I'm very excited about that. I'll ask

John Moore 48:31

her ask her how the memoirs memoirs memoir. Wow, that's my my mouth is not speaking French. Sometimes my mouth can speak French but not today. memoir. Yeah. So speaking of community, we've mentioned humanity a few a couple of times. And, you know, I want to not just be this complete pitch fest here. But I do want to talk about it. Because I'm so proud of what we've done and what we're doing and the community that's growing up that I do want to talk I do want to talk about it. And if anybody's if anybody's interested in this, you know, if you practice shamanism at all, definitely, I'll put a link in the in the show notes for you to follow through. But it's it's Shaman. community.com, pretty straight, pretty straightforward. But let's talk about this. Let's talk about the idea and also where the idea came from. And you really, you really like push, push things forward and sort of started this idea. And then I was like, Well, I've got some, I've got some nerd skills. I can put some technology together and stuff but let's talk about what what it is and where it started and why we're, why we're really proud of it.

Mary Katherine Spain 49:55

I'm so proud of it. And it's funny, I was just going to offer another class Joe took one of my classes in March. This year on Zoom, it was called click my heels. I just needed community. I was craving community and I had a few things I wanted to try and teach. So, um, you know, I just opened this class and then when, when the class was over, I was like, Oh, well, you know, where's my Thursday night peeps, you know, how can I recreate this? So I had the idea of maybe doing a bi monthly class, ongoing bi monthly class, but I, I really wanted a co host I didn't want to do do it on my own. I wanted to collaborator I think as we move more and more into this Age of Aquarius, Aquarius rules, groups of rules, what is best for all is the best and not you know, this, these solo ventures are sort of going by the wayside. So I wanted someone to collaborate with and I put the call out in my newsletter. And John got back to me, he got back to me, John, and I was like, yes. And so we were sort of off and running on this project of creating not just a class twice a month, but rather an online community of shamanic practitioners and students of shamanism people that were just getting turned on to it to create, you know, the Zoom temple, the place the platform, the spot where you can land to read an interesting article, tune in for the journey circle. I have the shamanic Coffee Klatch on Saturday morning, where we have a bit of counsel just like get things off your chest, and let's talk about things that we can't talk about with people that don't understand shamanism. And I love the presentations that we've been doing. I love the interaction that I have seen. I feel like there's a lot of potential there to that. That's really exciting. You want something that is near and dear to your heart to always grow, you want it to expand, you want that broader arc, you know, the long view, and I feel like our platform and our community definitely has that potential.

John Moore 52:31

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's been amazing. We only launched it. We're only two months old, really. And, you know, we were sort of thinking, Okay, well, you know, I was thinking when I saw this email for America, I was like, oh, yeah, I mean, I definitely want to do something. And I'm missing community as well with the pandemic. You know, a lot of the events that I would have gone to normally were canceled, and a lot of us were feeling kind of isolated. And so I thought, well, instead of just a, you know, a bi weekly or BI monthly or whatever, gathering, let's create a circle, let's create a sacred container for people who practice shamanism, whether they've been doing it for 30 years or 30 days. You know, as long as they have some shamanic training, we're not teaching. We're not teaching intro to shamanism, there. But you know, there are there's everything. We have all kinds of events from social stuff like the coffee klatch, we do regular journey circles. So we get together and journey together, which is incredibly powerful. When you journey with other people, even if you're not in the same room, you get you get carried on their wave of conscious energy. And the only way I can Well, I'll tell us, we'll, we'll tell a little story about that in a second. But, um, but we you know, and there's also interaction so you can meet people and a lot of people who are really active, there are, you know, people who are my student or your student who have joined the community and joined because I don't know anybody other than you, who does shamanism that I can even talk to about having these experiences that I'm having, where they, you know, okay, you know, I'm I journey and then this happened, or I, you know, doing this, and I'm seeing these nature spirits or you know, whatever. You can't really, you know, as we've, as we talked about, you can't really go to go to work, and sit around the watercooler and say, Well, I was journeying the other day and I ran into this troll in my backyard and you know, you're gonna you're gonna get a visit from HR or something. And so it's it's a space for that and we do we do prac together, which, to me is really beautiful. Like I love the I love the journey circles, I love to be together with other people either journeying or leading, leading a journey. And if you have ever, if you've ever journeyed on your own, but have not journeyed with other people, it's hard to describe how much more powerful it can be when there are other people journeying with the same intention that the same time that you are, it doesn't have to be the same time because you can get the same effect by watching a recording of a circle, as long as the intention of connecting to the circle is there. It's very powerful. And I want to tell there was kind of a funny, little bit of a funny story that happened one in one of our journey circles, and I was I was hosting this I was hosting a circle, so I wasn't journeying generally, I don't journey when I'm hosting because I'm making sure that the you know, the music is playing and making sure that the recording is going and, and just keeping keeping an eye on things in ordinary reality. So I don't I don't journey, which is it's nice that Mary Katherine leads journey circles, and I lead journeys, because because I want to journey with people too. So I can, I can, you know, go to Mary Katherine's journey circles and journey with others and on her behalf. And so we, we, you know, I started the music, we started a journey. And as soon as that happened, like I started getting a vision come that came through my head, and I couldn't really make sense out of it. And so I always have a pad of paper near me and pencils and stuff. And I just grabbed my pad of paper. And I drew really quickly what I was what I was seeing, and they didn't have much of an explanation for it. And then, so then the journey, the you know, the journey music ended, and people came back and took some notes and whatever. And Mary Katherine started describing part of her journey and a poor part of her journey. And, and you can, you can, you can say but it was literally the thing that I just drew

Mary Katherine Spain 57:08

was nice. And that journey was so powerful. First of all, we were journeying to Prometheus to find our Prometheus and get up. So John gave this awesome little mini lecture on the mythology of Prometheus. And then we entered the journey time we did our journeys, while John held space. And I, I guess I was due I went on all kinds of tours and how to dismemberment and my dismemberment, power animal is a great white shark. And so I was in at the bottom of the sea sort of getting torn apart. And there was this incredible wind that came from the West in the water. And I was like, How is wind and water and it's created this little dirt devil thing. That was a funnel, and it had in the middle of it, fire. And spirit was like, This is what you are, you are the feminine holder of the you know, the vessel, the watery feminine aspect, but you hold the fire of passion. This is you. And when John, as I was talking about this journey, as as we were checking in after John holds up his like sketchpad and he's like, this is what I drew, it looked exactly like the thing that I saw. It was, it was so wild, I couldn't believe it. I could not believe it.

John Moore 58:47

Right. And that's the that's not to like, this isn't a story for me to brag like I'm doing some psychic thing. That's not it at all. What what happens is that, even though I wasn't journeying, we're still connected, I'm still picking up on that energy that's going on in in the circle, even though we're in different geographic locations, but you're journeying at the same time, I'm caught up in that energy. So that vision is just coming from spirit and it's coming from, you know, the energy that we're all I do like it when you journey in a circle to being sort of like when you did that, if you've ever done this thing, when you were a kid when you were in a pool and you got everybody moving in the same direction and it kind of creates this whirlpool and current in a pool. It's kind of the same thing, but on a spiritual level. It's like everybody's creating this vortex of Journey energy and so you're you're riding this wave that has this perpetual motion and it's one of the beautiful things is one of the reasons why I love journaling. And I love journaling on my own but journaling in a group is easy. Even if it's two people is really, really fantastic. But as you add people 234 people, I think the biggest I've done, I can't remember was I did Soul Retrieval training, and Kripalu and it was a really big group like 80 people or something like that. It's really, really, really powerful. And that is one of the reasons to come together in community, when you're when you practice shamanism to, you know, to experience that to experience the ability to journey as a group and ride that ride that spiritual wave. I didn't have to it was cool. I didn't have to do anything. I was just along for the ride. Just you know, Hang Hang down.

Mary Katherine Spain 1:00:43

Yeah, that was really, really wild. And, you know, I was sitting here thinking about maybe it was, we're both fond of Prometheus. Maybe it was one of his little trickster moods.

John Moore 1:00:54

I searched certainly, yeah, I mean, Prometheus, Prometheus is definitely one of the penultimate trickster Gods so yeah, yeah. trick Zeus and still, you know, he's very, if you're not familiar, very much like Loki, and in, you know, always tricking, you know, tricking the other gods. And, you know, doing stuff. So, yeah, yeah, certainly could could be that energy going? Well, we've been chatting for nearly an hour. Oh, my goodness, I feel like we've could well, we could go on forever. Well, you and I know, we could go on forever. And there's, there's all kinds of things to talk about. But I wanted to, I wanted to sort of wrap up and just, you know, so so people can get a chance if they want to, if they want to find out more about what you've got going on. They can check you out on nine nine pillars healing, and it's the number nine, right?

Mary Katherine Spain 1:01:52

No, it's and I in a spelled out, so nine pillars milling.com. And there's, oh, man, I have another like a writer, website. I I also edit and and I'm a writing coach. So that's married conference. spain.com. And if you end up there, and you want it nine pillars, there's a spot on my bio that says, Are you looking for healing work, click here. And that takes you over to my other websites. So and vice versa, if you're on nine pillars, and you're like, oh, I need writing help. Mary Katherine spain.com will be there as well. So yeah,

John Moore 1:02:31

so I will. Yeah, I'll link to both in the notes. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, I'll link to it in the description of the YouTube channel. So you can check that out. And if you do, if you do practice shamanism, and really the only really the only bar to entry as you you should already know how to do a shamanic journey if you if you don't, if the community sounds interesting to you, and you don't know how to journey yet, go learn how to journey find a teacher, you know, look up a teacher, you can you could contact Mary Katherine or myself, or find another teacher or find a class in your area. I really am fond of learning learning journeying from a teacher whether that's in a, you know, a class or whatever, it's really hard to learn it properly from a book or something. But find a teacher learn how to journey and then come back and check us out it's Shaman. community.com, again, there'll be links in the show notes. It's really, it's a really cool, amazingly cool community that is growing and just couldn't be happier about everything there is there's so much there from for you know, content wise from you know, classes to record a journey circles to prompts to information about self care to just everything we can think of that people would benefit from, and it is it is growing and developing. Like we're starting to, you know, think about doing some group art projects and, and stuff like that. So, come join us, check us out, give us a join. I think you can join with a two week free trial just by coming to the page and clicking Sign up and check us out for a couple of weeks and come to one of our journey circles and see for yourself how, how amazing it is to journey with a group of like minded people. So yeah, anything else before we, before we end anything you'd like to add or subtract?

Mary Katherine Spain 1:04:39

Other than just I just want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to chat with you today. And thank you also for all the you know, sacred service you you do in the world, John? I feel like the the other kind of pillars, the torch bearers, you know, those that are holding the light rise up. It's Time get get out of your shell come on out and join the party because the time is now folks.

John Moore 1:05:06

Yep, no time like the present. All right, so I'll sign off you'll hear my outro and then I will will stop recording

Announcer 1:05:44

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to MaineShaman.com That's MAINESHAMAN.com

Ep49 Soul and Intuition with Psychic Medium Veronica Drake

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:47

Hello, everybody. It's been a little while. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. I have a very special episode. Today. I don't I should probably do this more. But I don't. I don't actually have a lot of guests on my show. But I'm very excited to bring a guest on for you today because she works in works. She I don't know what I don't know how to say this. But she does a different thing than I do. And I think that is where a lot of the interesting stuff happens. Right? A lot of the you know, I'm fascinated with what she does, but I'm not gonna delay I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna introduce her and bring her on and start talking to her because I've got lots of questions, and I'm sure this will be a fascinating episode for you all. So my guest today is Veronica Drake. And she is a dynamic, internationally recognized spiritual, intuitive, and psychic medium, and we're going to talk about what that is. She is a sought after keynote and motivational speaker, and a frequent radio and podcast guests, which I'm I'm lucky to have her her down to earth relatable approach is a magnet for people of all ages and places. She has been called a life changer. A guardian angel and a cheerleader rolled into one. She's a coach, intuitive, and magician. And without. I want to I don't want to I don't want to give too much away because I want to hear from from her. Welcome. Good morning.

Veronica Drake 2:22

Good morning, John. How are you? Morning world?

John Moore 2:26

Good morning world. We are both but you can't see us. But we're both drinking coffee this morning. So already we're fast friends were

tears were sharing cheers. Yeah, worship, we're sharing a coffee. So Veronica, I know some people call you vi Do you prefer if I call you Veronica or VI or you don't have a preference? Whatever you're comfortable with? I've been called vi since I was 11 years old. And so just naturally, you know, it just is a progression into my business world. But whatever you're comfortable with. Gotcha. Okay, well, maybe I'll call you V that's, that's shorter,

less work less syllables for me. I want to talk about so you know, I don't know if people probably have some idea of what a psychic medium is, you know, from TV shows or whatever, but I want to hear from somebody who is a psychic medium, which is you? How, what is a psychic medium? How would you describe that? If if Well, I am asking if if somebody asked but I am asking, what is the psychic medium? What does psychic mediums do?

Veronica Drake 3:34

Well, maybe I should start by saying what psychic medium is not. We're not carnival workers. Well, at least I'm not a carnival worker. I don't have a crystal ball. I don't predict the future.

What I do do is offer insight based on your energy, your vibration, what's happening in your life at the moment. And psychic and medium are two different things. But they actually go hand in hand and the psychic part of me taps into what's happening in your life. What potentials are out there?

Perhaps what you're missing what you're not seeing. And the medium part of me the mediumship part is me offering guidance, Insight messages from the other side from deceased loved ones. So yeah, there's the distinction that I'd like to clarify there. Yeah,

John Moore 4:32

thank you for that. Um, I have, I have a couple of very dear friends who are mediums and they, they're, they're, you know, they're, they're both just fantastic people to talk to and very funny and that, you know, and I don't know if you've had this similar experience, but they they've, you know, they came to a training that I was that not that I was giving, but we were in the same training together. And they showed up and they're like, ah, you know, my mother was in the backseat the whole ride here telling me to pay it, you know, watch the road. And, and, you know, the other woman is like, yeah, yeah, you know, I kept hearing or two and you know all of this stuff do you have? Do you have those kinds of experiences where spirits sort of jumps in when it's not expected? Or is it more a little bit more like I'm I'm specifically sitting down to communicate with spirit?

Veronica Drake 5:27

Well, it's a little bit of both. But quite honestly, I didn't sign up for any of this. I quote, unquote. And this is a loose term, and very normal and normal is all relative. But I grew up in a very dysfunctional way, and just had no direction of anything. And when I was 25 years old, I was pregnant with my second son, and I lost my beloved grandfather, he and my grandmother had basically raised me, I was very, very close to them, and just was devastated when I lost him and can remember sitting wide awake on my couch, just bawling hysterically. And wide awake again, emphasizing wide awake, and he came to me, just and I had no anything prior to that he had just come to me stood right in front of me, I saw them as he was about 2021 22 years old, he served in World War Two, he had his uniform on his hat. And I heard his voice in his voice, say, I'm okay. I'm okay. You need to take care of that little boy. And you now it was 1987, we didn't know it was gonna be a little boy. Lo and behold, a couple months later, I gave birth to a healthy nine pound baby boy. So, you know, that was my first introduction to mediumship. didn't know anything about it had no clue what it was. But that was my introduction to it. And so now, I'm very protective of my energy and my time. So, you know, if I were to go into, let's say, the mall, or sit at the park, and just kind of let it free reign, I'd be categorized as perhaps, you know, mentally unstable. So I have learned just instinctively when I'm going to do it, and when I'm not going to do it, and yeah, yeah, I

John Moore 7:37

think important. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know, one of the things, one of the things I discovered really early on in my spiritual practice, and the mall was a really great example of this, right, because you're surrounded by all kinds of people all kinds of energy, not all of it happy, not all of it, you know, uplifted, particularly in holidays, there's lots of, you know, hurriedness, and rampant consumerism and all of this stuff. And I just found myself getting just completely overwhelmed frequently, and it wasn't until I learned how to go, Okay, I gotta, you know, in these certain situations, I have to pull it back, I have to shield myself a little bit from this. And I think I didn't, I never considered myself particularly psychic or sensitive, or clairvoyant or anything like that. But then when I started doing the work that I do, it just, like, opened the open the faucet up.

Veronica Drake 8:40

And you write it being something bigger than we are,

John Moore 8:45

right? Yeah, absolutely. I just say spirit. Because yeah, it's this kind of catch all term that is, you know, includes it all, basically. Great. And so, after, after that happened, did were you did you then go, you know, sort of say, I gotta figure out what I gotta figure out what this is. Did it take you time? How did you get to the point where kind of where you are now where you're where you're, you know, seeing people and helping people and that sort of thing.

Veronica Drake 9:20

So that was 1987. Of course, that was March of 87. I gave birth to my second son in May of 87. I had a three year old a newborn. Needless to say, life was busy. I never really thought too much about it. I will say, as you probably know, we all hit a wall. We all hit a spiral. We all hit a pocket in our life where we just kind of, you know, kind of, for lack of a better word. We don't know what to do. We don't know where to go and so fast word 87, it came to 1996, I have just gotten along in my life, I was very, in hindsight. Now, this is all in hindsight, I came from a very dysfunctional background, there was a lot of alcoholism and mental illness. And it was about survival for me. And so I made a lot of bad decisions in my life, meaning I heard a lot of people. And in 1996, I had everything outwardly, to kids, great husband, you know, everything was flowing, everything was going and I was making really poor choices. And in November of 96, I said, That's it, I don't want to live anymore. And I went to crash my car into the side of a bridge. And my foot was on the accelerator, I had full intent. And my car filled up with this incredible, all I can say is worse, and I just had to squeeze my shoulders together. That's how full the car felt. And I felt my foot be pulled off the accelerator. And I heard, we've got you, we've got you. And really, I will say, 1996, that episode, that event was what really catapult catapulted me into this way of life, the spiritual existence.

John Moore 11:22

Yeah, I, I have a very, very similar experience, I have a very similar story to that. I was definitely about to take my life and was stopped by spirit. And if anybody has been through that, there's no denying that that's what's going on. There's no denying, like, you are physically moved by somebody like it's as if there were a physical person sitting next to you take, you know, grabbing your grabbing your body and preventing you from from doing what you're about to do. And there is there's, there's absolutely no denying that that that's not well, we are all connected, and we are connected to spirit and everything. It's not like a subconscious part of yourself, it's very clear that this is another spirit stepping in for a very good reason. Because you have stuff to do here you have your important, you have things to do. And I just, you know, I actually read that story a little bit and hearing it from you, it's even more impactful. And that our stories are so similar. Mine was much later than the night late 90s. But I don't know I waited much longer in my life to sort of wake up. But I sort of think of that as an initiation. I don't know if you think of it in the same way or use the same term. But I absolutely think of that as as my initiation into spirit.

Veronica Drake 12:57

Absolutely. But let me be clear, and say, I'm so sick. I didn't really know what to do with that. I had no background in any religion or spirituality, I had nothing. And so what I did was we kind of look at the masses around me, which I think a lot of us do and what I do, I went conventional Christianity which Listen, hear me say, nothing wrong with Christian, nothing, I believe and respect all religions. You know, there's, we all go the same path, right? But I went down full blown Christianity, and I got a bit indignant. You know, Jesus said, And God said, and let's go to the I became a televangelist of sorts. And I say that with all love and respect, but I didn't like that person that I wasn't, I'm like, Jesus, I'm right back here again, you know, there's got to be more. And I found my my early mentor, because I'm old. I'm going to be 60. Right. So in I don't

John Moore 14:06

think that's old. By the way. My, my grandmother's about to turn 106. So she's still I know, right? It's all relative. It's all relative.

Veronica Drake 14:19

So in the late early, late 90s, like, there were books, right, we couldn't press in Google and right. So I had a lot of introspective time I created a sacred corner all with knowing within me, and I found my mentor Wayne Dyer. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, you know, the highlight of my life was meeting that man and kissing his bald head. I mean, I just there's, there's a story but you know, so it just it was an evolution of sorts, but definitely an initiation. Definitely.

John Moore 14:55

Yeah, I wasn't aware you worked with Wayne Dyer. I'm a huge admirer. A huge fan of his and correct me if I'm wrong he paid past a few years ago not that long ago. But what a body of work. He left behind just prolific and loving soul that he was and is still, I, you know, we often speak of people who have passed in the past tense, but as a medium, you know that they are not, they are not past tense, not at all. And I should point out, you might see, like, there's just a couple of objects behind me. So this is my ancestor altar that's behind me. And the thing I'm pointing at is actually a silver water kettle that was my grandmother's grandmother's so it's been passed in my family. And then I have photos of my family there, and from the 1800s, and all kinds of stuff. Oh, I got chills. And, and I had, I always tell people, because I talk about ancestors a lot and that sort of thing. I'm like, it's a great idea to have an ancestor altar. I think it's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing to communicate with your ancestors. Don't put it in your bedroom, because they're gonna keep you awake all night. They're gonna Hey, what's going on? Let's party. Let's start. Sure. Yeah. So mine is in the center of my my home. It's not in my bedrooms upstairs and away from that. I love my ancestors. I absolutely I talk to them every day, I give them gifts and, and do all of those things. But it's a little bit like Grand Central Station sometimes over here. So

Veronica Drake 16:32

well, you can see behind me, I have my drum. I have my somebody my client actually gave me a drum sent me a drum, I have the wind, the dream catcher that someone made me I've paintings, OWL paintings that people gifted me with spirit animals, and all of these things are alive. All of these things, you know, have meaning in life. And they all contain energy. Right? So yeah, they feel in psychic world we call touching an object, like such as what you pointed out psychometry. So what I could do is touch that and get a feeling for the energy around it. That would be different than me, let's say connecting to great grandma. Gotcha. Gotcha. Is it? There's a distinct difference?

John Moore 17:21

Yeah, Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah. And I remember, years ago, when I was doing my shamanic training, I went to go do a workshop with an indigenous woman who was a drum maker and I made I made a high drum and everything about it, about making it it was a beautiful experience. If anybody, I don't think you have to be a shamanic practitioner at all to make make a frame drum. But go to somebody who is doing it in a sacred way. And you honor everything, you honor. So it's a high drum. So the surface of the drum isn't it is the skin of an animal that passed and we you know, we journey to the animal and honored the animal that passed and the hoop is made out of wood. So that's a tree that had to be cut down. So we journey to that. And we you imbue the drum with the energy of your, your heart. And so you're absolutely right there is there is a living energy to all of this, and you can feel it. You know, someone who's very sensitive, like you, I'm sure would get a ton of stuff, but even people who don't consider themselves particularly sensitive, like me, you I can feel that stuff. When I pick it up. Like it's imbued, it's palpable. Yeah, it

Veronica Drake 18:39

really is. You know, and also, you can see on my table, I don't know if you can see this, but I have elements, I have pieces of sticks, these little things here. And I, you know, they're shark's teeth that I've collected. Okay, so we have shark's teeth, we have shells. You know, everything is just my little altar. And then over here, I have rocks the element and angels and, you know, so So I gotta be honest and tell you when I when I first got into doing this, I really went hard and fast against I'm not woowoo. And my tagline might have been, I don't shrink heads or boil chicken bones. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But now, you know, I'm all about learning evolving. And while I'm not woowoo I do believe that there is value in everything and everything and that if I want to, you know, kind of say a ceremony or pray to the shark's teeth or talk to the energy of this, you know, like, I'm okay with that. You know, and, you know, I think the older you get, at least for me, the more confident you get, the more the easier it is to be your true self is what I found.

John Moore 19:54

Yeah, you stop. In my experience. It's funny I have I 15 Your old daughters, their twin twin daughters, and they, they'll always, you know, oh, they're like, do you want to? Do you want to be? Do you want to dance in our Tiktok? Video? I'm not a dancer. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if people can tell by looking at me, but I've never taken a dance lesson in my life. And I always say yes. And they're like, my friends love you. Because you always you always do this stuff. I'm like, I have no sense of shame. Like, that's it, I like, I don't care if somebody thinks I look dumb, I don't care. And part of that is I'm just like, I'm having fun with my daughters. And the same is true with my spirituality. I don't care if you don't believe the same thing that I believe, and I'm fine with whatever you believe it, but I'm going to be true to myself, I'm going to do the rituals that I do, I'm going to do the ceremony that I do, I'm going to practice in the way that I practice. And I don't insist that anybody else do things my way. Right?

Veronica Drake 20:58

And I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm not here to believe anything. I'm just me doing me,

John Moore 21:06

you know, right, right. And I think, you know, if somebody, if somebody were on the fence, a belief lies, and we're in we're to talk to you, for example, I think they would very quickly hop over that. That's my experience. And sometimes like, when I'm when I'm working, and I work in I work in Germany, so I work in altered state most of the time. Sometimes stuff comes through that cannot possibly be coming from me, right? There's stuff that I tell my clients that it's coming from their grandmother or coming from whoever who passed away, that there is no chance on this earth of me knowing or gathering that information. And it surprises me. Sometimes when that stuff comes through. It's nice, you know, it's nice when it happens that way for me were like, okay, yep, yep, I'm on, you know, I'm following the right the right thing here. And it happens more and more as I as I go on, and I have I have a student I met with just Sunday, Sunday morning, as a matter of fact, and she said, You know, I'm starting to, you know, I did the ceremony for this person. And even before I got into this healing ceremony, like I started getting flashes of, you know, the, the, you know, the trauma that they had experienced that I was working on, I'm like, yeah, it's gonna happen more and more as you practice, it just opened your eyes.

Veronica Drake 22:32

We we are most comfortable, I think with titles and labels. Yeah. Because then our human brain can wrap around and say, Oh, I can get that. When you try to explain exactly what's happening as a medium art, we don't have any reference vanity to say, you know, so I'm very clear to my clients to say, I'm humanizing this by saying, Okay, you go to the white light, you stand at a table, there's a line they check your name off and you go, you know, I'm really good at it. Well, spirits really good at using me as a communicator for humanizing it. But with my, my journey into shamanism looks like this. Again, doo doo doo doo doo going about my business, you know, being a psychic medium, and all of a sudden, I get on a phone call with a client and she's talking about shamanic stuff. And I was remembering, I was like, Oh, I didn't say anything on the phone call. But you know, we hung up and afterwards, I sat down and this very prolific Whoa, line of stuff came out of me. And it came to me. I wasn't a shaman, but I in a past life was a medicine woman. So I go, What am I gonna do with that? And Spirit says to me, it's just in your repertoire. It's just what you're going to do. Yeah, it doesn't belong necessarily under one category or another. Like I talked earlier to you coming on here. I work with Tarot. I work with mediumship I work with angels I it's just a knowing um, the conduit.

John Moore 24:15

Right, right. And there are there are tools and I think most people, or many people get this but there are tools like tools like tarot, right. And when you when you are reading Tarot cards, it's not so much that there's magic in the cards. Although as you use the cards, they start to get imbued with your energy. But a brand new, like somebody who's good at reading Tarot can open up a brand new deck and do a very insightful reading. These are just tools. These are just ways to bring things up ways tools for communication, it's the it's the, you know, it's the person sitting across from you who's acting as a conduit and the information is coming through from spirit we talked before this, that my, my girlfriend is a very gifted tarot reader and she had been doing readings well before we met. And then when we met, she's like, Oh, you practice shamanism. I'm really, you know, that's really cool. Let me and, and I knew off the bat, you know, when she started, she started working with me that she was going to be a natural she already had it, she was already there. And so shamanism for her is just another tool. Again, it's just another modality that she's working with. But she is able to, to channel and harness and be the be the conduit and in shamanism we have the phrase is be the hollow bone, right be the bone that spirit passes through, able to get out of the way for Spirit to spirit to work through us.

Veronica Drake 25:51

Oh, absolutely. You know, and and it's funny, because I have always just seen myself as the communicator, I laugh because I tell people, people always come to me and they say, What's my purpose? Why am I here? And my answer to that is, your purpose is found in your naturalness of who you naturally are. Right? So I go all the way back to birth. And my story in my family is I started talking at nine months old and I haven't shut up. Detention, I could not I was the kid sitting in the corner that couldn't sit by their friends. Well, the joke's on you because it's how I make my living. So So embrace who you are, naturally, don't run from it. Don't you know? Because society wants to say, well, here's a box, you better get in it. And if you don't fit in it, cram yourself in it.

John Moore 26:49

And no, and nobody fits in a box. Literally, nobody fits in that box perfectly. And

Veronica Drake 26:56

I just saw I'm wearing the box with my arms cut out.

John Moore 27:01

Like the Halloween costume, right when we were kids? Yeah, yeah, it's very funny. My mom will tell you, you know, when I when she went in for parent teacher conferences when I was I don't know, whatever elementary school and the teachers like, you know, John's a very good student. He's very smart. But you see that desk over there in the corner?

Veronica Drake 27:25

We wouldn't have been friends.

John Moore 27:26

Yeah, we would have been separated in school for sure, though. But yeah, I'm a I'm a talker, and I'm you know, but you touched on something that's really, really important to me, and has become a, you know, really, if I were to boil my life's mission down. And I haven't, I haven't done a really good job at putting words around this yet. But it is really about being being part of the support for people to be who they are, whatever that is, without judgment, without telling people who they need to be, you know, people will, you know, have students all over the world. And, you know, sometimes they'll come to me and they'll say, oh, you know, I have this really weird dream, or this really weird journey, can you? Can you tell me what that means? And I said, Well, I could do the work and tell you what that means. But you're going to do the work, because I'm disempowering you by taking that away from you. I'm disempowering you by telling you what you need to do with that, like, I'm going to I'll help you as a student. It's different with clients, because clients don't have the training. So I'm going to help them in that way. But when I teach people, I'm like, I am not going to give you any answers. I'm going to give you some experiences, and I'm going to show you how to get your own answers. But I'm also a little bit like that with my clients and really supporting them to be whoever they are to step to step out if that's what it means. Some people don't want to step out into the, into the, you know, and I have to hold myself back because I'm like, Oh, you gotta get out there and be in front of audiences and sounds to me, like, Oh, hold on. I'm an introvert. That's not my thing. And I'm like, okay, all right. That's cool, too, if that's your thing, if that's your thing, but if you've got a gift, if you've got a gift, share it, share it in whatever way that makes sense for you. You know, the world will be a better place with more art and more spirit and more music and more people who love to cook or it doesn't matter what it is, whatever you love to do to be however you love to show up. fill the world with that love and we'll all be better for it.

Veronica Drake 29:48

Well, and people the if I had to give you the number one question I get asked during every reading without exception. What's my purpose? Why am I here? Yeah. Uh, and so my answer to that is always, it's kind of generic in the sense that that's not a question that's answered by where you go to work. Or you know, what you produce, you know at your work or how degreed you are or what car you drive or how much money you have the soul as I understand it, the soul comes in and I use very human terms. So I'm not going to fancy Glancy it up and you know, I don't use esoteric terms, I'm going to the soul comes in with its agenda, its mission, its purpose, right? It very distinctly understands why it chose this demographic, why it chose this geographical region. It knows all of that, and the human do to do through. Right. Why is this happening to me and, and then grandpa, Joe tells you, you know, don't like these people, and then be on the lookout for these people and be skeptical. And you know, oh, you're gonna fail? If you do, right, we're conditioned, we have all this heaviness on? Yes. Yeah, I was just sitting down this morning. And I know, I'm going to jump all over the place. But I was sitting down this morning. And I as I do every morning, and I talked to spirit, and I am ready, I got my pen poised. I'm doing a psychic development Academy. I'm going to be launching in September. And I said, Well, spirit guide communication helped me Help me Help me. You know, however, I'm saying it. And you know, talking to Spirit is like an equivalent to a child learning to walk. No one can tell that child how to walk. I mean, you have kids, you know, did you you know, come on now Susie, pick your foot up like no one does that, right? Where does the kid know? It's inherent right? Kid, right? What do we do? Oh, look at she's picking her head up. She's a month old. What do we do, right? That's a natural milestone in that child's life. Then the child goes and you know, stands up, boom, the child falls down. The child doesn't go, Oh, I'm not going to do this anymore. This is too hard. No, because there's no conditioning. So when we're learning to speak with spirit, everybody wants to know V, tell me how to do it. Tell me, I can't. Yeah, I can help you with some benchmarks and some guidelines. But I can't tell you how to do that for you. You got to get up, pick your foot up, you know, fall down, you know, and then try again. And so my approach to teaching this is let's rely on what's inherent in you. You're programmed, I believe the soul is a spark of what created us

John Moore 32:51

100% It's funny, we talk about things in very, very similar terms and have a very, I always say that, I would say that what the inner part of us is a spark. I'll say divinity and you realize that might be a spiritual term. We can call it source we can call it creator you can call it God, whatever name you want to label you want to put on it. But absolutely 100% And I have experienced that firsthand and is an incredibly powerful when you when you get in touch with that. But I often say with my students that look, I don't want to I don't want to be anybody's guru. That's too much responsibility for me too much.

Veronica Drake 33:31

walk next to me because I don't know where to hell, I'm going.

John Moore 33:37

Right? I'm a guide. I'm a guide. I'm gonna you know, I've I've been to some places you haven't that I can show you around. But you know what you do? There is up to you. Right? And that's it. And I'm not going to tell you what you need to do with your life. I'm not going to tell you and if you and if Spirit tells you this John guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Do it differently than listen to them. Spirit always takes precedence over me. What do I know? I know

Veronica Drake 34:05

worse. Of course. You know, it's funny because I've been doing this work so long, and I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of testimonials. Right? Oh, V is so you know, she's that and every time one comes in, I'm like, oh, geez, you know, that's like, I don't really, you know, but the business world, it's what we do. But, you know, you get that one person that comes in or two people and they're like, well, she's a fraud and she's, uh, you know, in we get them we do, you know, and right away. You know, there's that like, yeah. And what's interesting to me is no matter how advanced or how developed quote unquote, we are, I always have that retaliatory energy that wants to come back at you and say, Why have 1000 reviews? That's right, right. But then I go like this. Okay, there is my special teacher of the day.

John Moore 34:59

Yeah. Uh oh, I love that I love that. I got this from from a student of another teacher and I should say so I didn't come up with this phrase, I'm stealing it completely. I'm admitting to stealing this phrase, we were talking about being triggered, right? Which is that experience of oh, how dare this, you know, or, or just having this and how triggers are pointers to our wounds or our inner wounds? And, you know, the his teacher said to me, instead of wounds, I like to use the word teacher. I'm like, Oh, yeah. And his student, I could tell Spirit was speaking through him just said, yeah, so these triggers their bread crumbs from your teacher. And I was like, blew my mind. I'm like, Okay, first of all, I'm gonna steal that phrase. And someday I may write a book called bread crumbs from the teacher, but I will give you full credit and, you know, split the profits or something with you at that point. I don't even care. I don't care. I wouldn't be writing it for profit. Anyway, I'd just be writing it to share information but bread crumbs from the teacher what a beautiful phrase. And you know, when stuff like that comes out of people that that's, oh, this this guy is this guy was so his, his teacher and I are partnered in the shamanic community and she's like, Yeah, this guy, he the first time he came to me, I knew like he was he was he was kind of, kind of on it. So I've had I've had lots of conversations with him and he, you

Veronica Drake 36:29

find to the simplest things are the most profound. For sure.

John Moore 36:35

Absolutely. Simplicity. It's

Veronica Drake 36:37

so there's so much profoundness in. I mean, really, and I say this in all earnest in all sincerity. Watch the grass. Watch the grass, and I get chills when I say this because a blade of grass to sit and watch that watch as it just is, right. It's how it's nurtured and how secure it is, and how the wind will, you know, move it or the footprint or the you know, watch the watch the trees, I can see the trees swaying. It's a beautiful day here in Pennsylvania, the airs, I can see the clouds floating by I mean, it doesn't get any better than that.

John Moore 37:22

No, there's a there's a story about, there's a story about the Buddha actually, where I think this happened in Deer Park, where he was preaching with the people who are following him. And one day, he just came in and picked up a flower, and just sat there and held it and said nothing. And one of his students, I forget which one that you know, people who are scholars of Buddhism would know know which one it was, he was one of the our hearts, one of the his famous followers, like got it and was almost instantaneously enlightened to like, fully full on, like, reached enlightenment from from getting it and, and absolutely people I think are frequently looking for these. And I'm a fan, I have, I have a case, you can tell I have ADD and like I'm a fan. I'm not Yeah, I'm a fan, I'm a fan of complexity and making things more complex than they have to be. But that's a really good reminder that they're like a blade, like if you look at, you know, the billions and trillions of blades of grass out there, but you can pick fine, just one and just look at it. That alone can be an enlightening experience, and then you recognize just what a miracle it is to have this consciousness to have, that we exist at all that the world exists, that the universe exists to give us, you know, infinite opportunities to reach and touch spirit in that way.

Veronica Drake 38:55

You know, it blows my mind that, you know, an egg and a sperm. And then walawe like, it's like, it just I know, I'm gonna be 60 And I'm still like, blown away by that concept. You know, of life. Like it's miraculous, you know, you know, I was reading an article and this is I'm very naive, and like, I'm very, I'm very childlike in the sense. I don't ever offend people. You know, my husband says to me, you can ask anybody anything. And because I haven't an air of innocence about me, I'm not asking you about your sexuality, because I want to condemn you. I really want to understand your perspective. You know, so I'm reading this article, and I was in a forum, you know, typing and they and you'll often see the word God, g dash or g dash D, and they won't put the O in it. And so here's me going, why don't they put the O in God? Like, why don't we wait, you know, someone in the forum says because it's offensive to some people and, and I said, Well, it's just a word. Yeah, so I don't understand. Like, I'm all about exploring deeper and looking about, why are you triggered by a word? Right? So I can call it God, you can call it source divinity, I don't care what you call it, it at the end of the day, it's an energy.

John Moore 40:16

Right, right. And I think that, I don't know for sure, I don't know why spelling the word God out it has the same root as the word good. Which, you know, whatever is offensive to some people other than I know that in there are ineffable Names of God that comes from Hebrew that, you know, only the only the priest of the inner sanctum of the temple back when there was a temple could speak once a year or something like that. So there was some ceremony or some ritual, but it wasn't, I'm pretty sure it wasn't God, what that this person was speaking, you know, whatever, whatever it was. And, interestingly, he would go in once a year and put his hands on the Ark of the Covenant. When it was still in, you know, people have seen Raiders of the Lost Ark. And people have looked at because they're the the, I'm going off on a complete tangent here, but it's my add the Ark of the Covenant, if you were to build it today, exactly as designed. In the Bible, it says, you know, take this type of wood and put gold on the inside gold on the outside and put it on top and do this and do that, if you were to do that, it would be a gigantic capacitor, an electrical capacitor. And so what happened from time to time, is when the one priest who is allowed into the inner sanctum where the Ark was, would go in, and they would have to tie a rope to his ankle, because very frequently, once a year, they would touch this and sometimes explode. And they would have to pull his body out with with a rope because nobody else was allowed in. And it's theorized that there was like, this thing was gathering an electrical charge for an entire year. And then this priest would go in to do this, you know, whatever the ceremony was, and put his hands on it. And of course, the electricity would discharge through him like lightning. And if you hear it, read the stories about the ark, you know, they carried it into battle, and it casts lightning and all of these things. And then you look at the plans. If you're a nerd like me and say, Oh, that's a giant capacitor. And that's not taking anything away from the sacred nature of this of this object. Because I think electricity is a pretty miraculous thing. We can sort of explain it scientifically, but not completely, but the fact that it exists at all is pretty darn miraculous. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. You know, and allows us to have this conversation. You're in Pennsylvania, I'm in Maine, you know, and then people, you know, and I know, I look at the statistics on on this podcast. I have listeners in India, in Norway, all over the US all over Canada, all over Europe and Africa. Right? Yeah. I love that I love you know, some people say that technology dehumanizes us and it can, you know, there's a lot of grossness on social media and stuff. But But I without technology, we wouldn't have met, probably we wouldn't be able to have this conversation, we wouldn't people wouldn't be able to tune in and hear about this stuff. And so, you know, again, it's a tool. It's a tool, and it's all in it's all in how you use it. Right? Absolutely.

Veronica Drake 43:31

It really is a small world. When I talk to a client in Norway, or Singapore, or Ireland or, you know, all over the world, there's a commonality to own. Like, I don't, you know, it's like, wow, it just blows my mind how similar. We all are.

John Moore 43:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We're all human. We have different cultures, we have different languages and different upbringing, but we underneath it all. Underneath it all, we're all the same. And you know, every, every genuine spiritual teaching teaches that we're all brothers and sisters. You know, I think it's a perversion of spiritual idea, idea to separate people the way that they have. And definitely to justify that using any sort of religion or doctrine or anything to say, you know, we're good and those people are bad. That's basically what well I

Veronica Drake 44:31

give to theory there is divide and conquer, we, we have an agenda, we have a mission, you know, we'll divide you and we'll conquer and then we'll divide you again and we'll conquer more and then we'll have the whole you know, there's like all of this going on. But you know, we're human and we live we must live in a world of duality. There has to be if there's good, there's bad like, we have to experience duality. You know, the other thing is people always say to me, Well, you know the ascension is coming and how to Why ascend and here's what Spirit told me about the ascension. The Ascension is a very personal thing that happens within you. Right? And I teach my clients if you want to ascend, use your bottom three chakras work through your stuff and ascend. I mean,

John Moore 45:19

yeah, that's simple, I think. Yeah, I don't I think people have these mo for movies or where they get these ideas from that you're gonna physic I mean, any I know people believe us that you're physically going to get sucked up into the clouds somewhere or something like that. Where it is, it's really about turning inward as opposed to looking upward. I don't I don't I don't know yet if I'm a fan of the word ascension, because I think it's, I think it can be misleading like that. I don't I don't have any problem with people who are who are trying to quote unquote, ascend or whatever. That's not it. It's the word I think is misleading, that people think that it's it's a, it's a raising up rather than a turning in somewhere to go. Yeah, yeah, somewhere to go. Your divinity is, is here, you can't get rid of it. If you were to get rid of it, you would cease to exist. So you have it within you right now. And that, you know, that's there's that teaching, as well, that runs through spiritual systems. Sometimes it's hidden, because it's esoteric. And sometimes it's out in the open. In Buddhism, they believe that everybody is a Buddha already, it's just a matter of getting rid of the stuff that isn't, really. And that's and that's kind of it and that's enlightenment, or ascension or whatever word we want to put it. I gotta come up with a better word, I think, I don't know.

Veronica Drake 46:43

Really, let me know when you do. You know, we get so as the human race, we get so distracted with words and titles. And, you know, my clients will come to me and they'll say, Well, what about this five d? And I'll be like, Well, what? What is five? D? Right? Oh, we're in 3d now. And then we go to fourth? I can't help you with that. I don't I don't work on that language. I don't know it.

John Moore 47:12

Yeah. I don't know it either. So I won't, I won't claim to know. But I do know, it's a term that I've heard out there. And relatively recently, like, just in the past couple of years, that term has come out. So you know, there is there's an element to spirituality where people are, people are trying to come up with new stuff, because they haven't been satisfied with what they've found so far, or something, which is fine. And that's okay, do your own thing, find your own thing. But, you know, people have been doing this work since there have been people and so there isn't necessarily a need to make up something new to quote unquote, ascend or go, you know, travel to other dimensions, we, you know, we can, you can do that right this moment, without, you know, any new terminology technology or anything,

Veronica Drake 48:05

I mean shamanism, 100,000 years old, and whenever, you know, and

John Moore 48:09

they think it may actually predate modern humans, so it may actually be older than 100,000 years, because they found evidence in a cave that in Qasem Cavan, in Israel, that's three or 400,000 years old. So that's not even, that's not even homosapiens at that point. So as long as there have been people capable of symbolic thought they have been, we've been talking to spirit and you know, so everybody has everybody has that innate ability anyway.

Veronica Drake 48:41

Well, I have to tell you, because my husband is Catholic, miss my second marriage, and we've been together 20 Some years and he's Catholic and for us to we got married civilly, right. So we went to the courthouse, whatever, we got married, and he really, I respect and honor his religion, and he wanted to become married Catholic. And so I went through the tradition of, well, I'm gonna go into the tradition, but you know, ABC, XYZ, right. All that. And we got married to the Catholic Church. And I had the priests over one day for dinner, and we were talking and and I just said, You know what? I'm just going to tell the priest what I do. Because it goes along that vein of if I try to hide something, I'm not being true to who I am. I can't do the work. I came here to. So I said to the priest, no, because I'm one of the things I'm really funny. Um, yes. Right. You too, right? Yeah, really? So I said the priests I said, Did you bring your holy water with you? He says, why? Probably gonna want to douse me in it when I tell you what I do. And I said, I just know things. I can look at people. I can feel things about them. I can know things about them. And I'm talking and he's not saying any thing and he sipped his coffee. And he puts his coffee down and says, whoa, that's your gift from God.

John Moore 50:04

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Veronica Drake 50:06

I said, All right, then, you know, there was some validity, but I can I tell a quick story about please do. My son was in pharmacy school in Florida. I live in Pennsylvania. It was his graduation. The only flight down was late at night, my husband couldn't go. So I took a late night flight from Pennsylvania to Florida. I get on the plane, I'm traveling alone. I get on the plane, I sit down, I'm sitting, I got the ILC this guy comes on the plane. And I thought, Oh, he looks interesting. And I could pick a vibe up, right? And I look now this is me. I like his shoes. He's really nice shoes. You know, hopefully, maybe I'll sit across from him. We'll have good conversation. Let him sit across from me. So he sits the other aisle seat across from me. And we're talking and you know, just he's very interesting. And he's got three businesses and we're going back and forth. And he says, the flight attendant comes down and she says, Would you like a cocktail night? No, I'm good. And he says, Let me buy you a drink. No, no, no, no, that three four times he would not take I said, No, I'm good. You're not You're not buying me a drink. He wouldn't stop. I looked at him. Honest to God, I looked at him, right. And it just came out of my mouth before. I know. How many times have you been in jail? And now by outwardly appearances, prim and proper, great Italian leather shoes, like didn't look like he was in jail. How many times have you been in jail? He looked at me and he said three, he turned his head forward. Never said another word to meet. We're getting off the flight. And he said to me, how did you know? And I said, I just know things. Yeah. And it kind of it's like that, like you just know things. You don't know why you know it. You just know it. But it protected me. Right. Right. Got me out of that situation. So trust.

John Moore 51:52

Yeah, totally. Yeah, absolutely. So interestingly, I have a little story as well. He's sort of a similar vein. So it was just last week, as a matter of fact, I was. I was leading a journey circle over zoom. So there were some people journeying. And when I lead, I don't journey with them, I just, you know, make sure everybody is all said, and I play music and all of these things. So immediately, I put the music on and people are journeying. And for those of you who don't know, it means going into an altered state and traveling in spirit form and working with spirit. That's what, what shamans do. And so the second thing I started doing, I get this like, really weird picture in my head. And fortunately, I had a pad of paper next to me, and I just grabbed it. And I just started drawing. And it was sort of like this conch shell looking thing with a flame coming out of the top. And like, well, that's really interesting. But the vision is really strong. And I have to so I put it down. And then after the journey, which is about 20 minutes long, I'm like, Okay, who wants to share, and this woman started to share, oh, I have this really weird thing. It was like a whirlwind in the water with a fire coming out of the top. And I'm like, Hold on, I gotta, you know, I gotta show you something. And I, like I held up the thing that I had drawn, and she lost her. She's kind of lost her wits a little bit. Like, how did you do that? You're a wizard, your brother? I'm like, no, no, I'm like, it just, it just came through it just like it just happened. It's you know, and I knew, there's a moment that you know, like, Okay, this is this is information that needs to come out, or I need to trust it, or I need to draw it or something along those those lines. But it was it was really funny. And then she emailed me again, the next day. And she's like, I'm still reeling about what you drew last night. And I should probably should probably mail her mail her the drawing or something. I mean, it's not, it's not a fantastic work of art. It's just a really quick sketch of what I saw. I didn't quite understand what it was when I saw it. But then when she described it, it was it was exactly, and it was a weird, like, it was a weird combination of, of objects as well. So it wasn't something that would have likely been something for me to draw.

Veronica Drake 54:12

Well, when I read for clients, it never means anything to me, because it's not the most, and I can't censor the message, you know, and I just bring the message forward. I'm, as I said in September, I'm starting my psychic development, Academy and teaching psychic development, intuitive development, I use them synonymously is kind of like trying to tell a two year old what to do. You know, it's like intuition is going to happen, right? It's going to take its own course, like the two year old who wants to get dressed by himself. He's just gonna go at it and intuition is just going to flow out of us. It's going to do its thing. Our job is to create an awareness. Yeah, yeah. Up A space of awareness so that when we get that subtle nudge because, people The other question I get is people will say to me, How do I know if it's my intuition? Or if it's my own thought, intuition will never beat you over the head. It's going to be a very think about the quietest. You know, I'm old enough to remember the low talkers on Saturday Night Live. Right,

John Moore 55:25

right.

Veronica Drake 55:28

Versus the loud. That's right. So the low two or no low talker was Seinfeld? Yeah. When we would get next to Seinfeld. Right. Right. Right. And so intuition is like the low talker, you you, you know, it's very subtle. It's very calming. And it's out of the blue like, oh, I never would have thought of that. Where'd that come from? Yeah, where your own ego your own critical mind, replays. And it really only has a built in loop that you've created. So it's gonna be familiar to you.

John Moore 56:02

Right? Right. That's, yeah, that's a big distinction. For me. When I when I get information that I'm like, it's quite clear that it's not coming from me when it's when it's on. And like that image that I got the other night, it was a quick, it was a really quick, you're right, it was quiet, it was a really quick flash. But I knew I'm like, That's really strange. I'm going to draw that before I forget it. And, you know, other, you know, very frequently with clients very much the same, I just get information, I'm like, I'm just going to deliver this to you. Because if I interpret it, then I'm putting my human expectations, experiences, prejudices, all of that stuff on top of it. And it's going to be less meaningful at that point. So let's, I want to get into this. I want to hear about your psychic development Academy. That sounds fascinating to me that you said starting in

Veronica Drake 56:58

September, September, yep. I, I really, it means a lot to me, to help people to develop with integrity, and compassion, and discernment. And so I want to teach in a way that honors those traits, those qualities, right. And I want to humanize psychic development, and I want to put a, a spin on it, that is very normal. And, you know, if somebody's born without sight, you know, we accept that. But you know, sight is part of who we are. And we just go, oh, you know, they don't have sight. But no body is born without psychic ability. No one, right. And that's a direct to me in meditation from source, nobody's born without it. And so if I can help you, you know, I just saw an image in my head. Now, it's like that silver pot behind you. You don't know the luster it has until you work at it until you clean it and you change the luster and the brilliance of it. I take psychic ability, and I show you how to buff it out how to bring it to fruition in a way that's helpful and useful to people. I'm not a predictive psychic, you know, I have what to expect when you come for a psychic reading with me. I'm not going to tell you the future. I'm not going to tell you your soulmate. I'm not gonna I'm not that I probably a more like a psychic or intuitive coach, I'm going to have a conversation with you. And this is the techniques that I'll be teaching in the psychic development Academy.

John Moore 58:46

Wonderful. And, you know, I'm sure they're going to be listeners out there who want to check that out, potentially sign up for that, should they go to your website? Or whether it be something separate for that? How would they find out more about that,

Veronica Drake 58:59

I'm in the process of fine tuning some things on my website. So if you go there, right now the program that is available is called going within. And the reason I created going within was because I believe all transformation happens from within. So whether you're looking to get a different job, whether you're looking to step up your own intuition, whether you're looking to forgive someone, it all starts with with from within. So going within is my membership. And it's it's very eclectic, and it's a lot like me, it's all over the place one day, you know, one week we're going to learn this and the next week we're going to learn this but then I'm going to show you how to use it in practical reality. Not just give you some esoteric, here it is I'm going to show you how to use it in your everyday life. So I'm really proud of of going within

John Moore 59:52

Yeah, that's fantastic. Because I think, you know, I love to read about really sort of highfalutin esoteric things and stuff, but there's an expression in shamanism, but does it grow corn? Right, which is the whole thing of okay, now I've read about these, you know, histories and all of these things. But really, I still have to live my life and I have to help my clients live my life. And I really need to ground this ground my spirituality, because guess what, folks? If you're listening to this, you probably are in a body, I'm assuming. I mean, maybe maybe not. But most of us listening to this or speaking on this, are in a body, we live on Earth, we have to pay the about bills, we have children to raise, you know, we've as a culture to live in and all of these things. So grounding, that knowledge is so important. And your website is Veronica drake.com. Right? Dra. Yep. So definitely check that out. And I will put a I'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. So depending upon your your, what, however, you're accessing this podcast, you should be able to find that but you can you know, if you type in Veronica drake.com, Google double Google double. That's a good word. I like that. Google. Google. It's hard to say. But it's a fun word to say. It's not my business

Veronica Drake 1:01:19

card. I'm Google Now.

John Moore 1:01:23

Google, Google me if you had said that. 20 years ago, Google me somebody would think you were saying something perverted. But kind of a cool word, though. Right? Google? It is? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I knew it from being a nerd. Because it's a math term. It's a it's a one with 100 zeros behind it is a Google? That's where that term came from. Yeah, I

Veronica Drake 1:01:42

just learned something. Yeah, it's

John Moore 1:01:43

a it's a nerdy math term, which is why you know, the the people who founded Google are all you know, Merit editions and nerdy, nerdy folks like myself, or actually probably more so than myself. And I don't mean mean nerd in a pejorative way. It's, it's, it's now nowadays, nerd is actually a compliment. So it just means you're incredibly smart. And yeah, lots of math going on there. But yeah, I mean, let me Google you is such an interesting turn of phrase. Anyway.

Veronica Drake 1:02:15

I have a ton of personality. I have no math skills, but

John Moore 1:02:21

we all have our gifts and personality is a personality is a gift. Well, look, we are we are at the top of the hour. And I feel like we could talk for two or three more hours. I hope that you will come on again, I know you are a very busy person. It looks like you're doing about 30 million different things. And you've got this psychic development Academy coming up in September, I will be sure to check it out. And do you have a newsletter something people can subscribe to if they go to your site and social media

Veronica Drake 1:02:57

to ask. I was just sitting at my desk right before you we got on here at writing the newsletter. So yeah, that will be going on.

John Moore 1:03:06

So yeah, so for me, if I if I know like with my add some things coming up in September, I'm gonna have to like sign up for your newsletter or something like that as a reminder. So people do do that. Because I know how these things go. You're like, I'm interested in this thing. Oh, I'm really I'm really down with that. And then you, you know, it's a couple of months away, depending on when you listen to this. So definitely, definitely give us subscribe, and I'm sure you've got social media and oh, yeah, Google, Google Mobile. And we all have we all have that stuff these days. You know, that's how I that's how I found I found my teacher online using the shamanic tool called Google. But, Veronica, it's been just what a wonderful conversation I have had with you this morning. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your your insight and and all about, well, maybe not all about but at least some about mediumship. And and what makes psychic ism is that the bright term being a psychic and being a medium different, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how to. I'm not always great with words. I'm very gracious

Veronica Drake 1:04:17

host though. You're very gracious host and I would be honored to come back.

John Moore 1:04:21

Awesome. Awesome. Well, we'll we'll be in touch and we will definitely have you back on. Maybe we'll get you in like closer September to and really dive into the, your, your academy as well, a little bit more. But thank you so much for coming on. And thank you folks for tuning in. And I hope you're happy, healthy and well and we will talk to you real soon.

Announcer 1:05:14

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to main charmin.com That's mainshman.com

Ep48 An Hour of Soul Power with Susie Beiler

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:44

Hey, everybody. I have a very special episode of this podcast today. I'm very excited. I don't have a lot of guests on this show, I guess because I like hearing myself talk, I don't know. But

I'm very pleased to have a guest today and I don't want to delay at all. So I'm going to I'm going to introduce her and you'll pardon me if if I'm reading a little bit her bio because she's got a lot going on, and I try not to get anything wrong. My guest today is Susie Baylor and she is a certified holistic health practitioner, and a foundation of the Creation temple and I love that name and online library, supporting Lightworkers in their spiritual path. Suzie is a living example of the balance Divine Feminine masculine also love that working with deeply sensitive empaths to tap into their divine power, master their energy, and live their soul mission. She's a dynamic public speaker, and I can attest to that with a commanding stage presence. She lives and leads retreats in Sedona, Arizona, one of the most beautiful places on earth and enjoys nature, authentic authenticity and high vibrational food. You can find her website and I will link to it underneath this as well is WWW dot Susy baylor.com S U S, i e, B E I L E r.com and www dot creation temple.com and www W that's three W three w is dot Sedona rebirthing retreats.com. And we're also going to talk about something very exciting coming up. Well, if you're listening to this in in the end of May or June, something very exciting. That's coming up in June. But welcome Susie, thank you so much for being my guest today.

Susie Beiler 2:48

Thank you so much for having me, John. This is so much fun to be here.

John Moore 2:52

Did I did I do well, with your introduction, I realized I editorialized a little bit but

Susie Beiler 2:58

awesome. And I'll just make one correction.

Don't feel bad because most people get it wrong. It's the pronunciation of my last name, which is by Beiler oh my gosh, that's terrible. That's, that's, that's my worst sin. i i But thank you for correcting me because I really, really don't like to pronounce people's name incorrectly. Like it's, it's that's a super important thing to me. So thank you for thank you for that correction. I appreciate it. I would hate to think that I was

John Moore 3:29

repeatedly calling you the wrong thing.

Susie Beiler 3:31

And no worries. And people do it all the time. So like I said, don't feel bad about

John Moore 3:35

it. It's it's hard. I mean, my I guess I was, you know, fortunate, unfortunate. My name is really common. I mean, you know, my last name is like the, you know, one of the 16th most common names in the US or something like that.

Yeah. And John is, you know, super, super common. So nobody, nobody ever mispronounces my name.

How do you describe soul? What's your definition of soul?

Susie Beiler 5:32

Yeah, that's a big question. So I'll do my best for my human understanding and experience.

I had described soul as that truest, most whole part of ourselves. And I understand that, you know, sometimes we do need soul healing. But the way Prime Creator, and this is the energy that I channel, for those of you who don't know, my work, the way Prime Creator describes soul is that there's a, there's a core, that is always hole, there's a core that can't be touched. So even if we have soul wounding, it's, it's more of the outer layers. It's not at that core. So we have this amazing resource for our human existence and our human experience, we have this amazing resource to call upon, to help us make decisions to help us get clear about things to help us understand why we're here on this planet, our purpose, our mission. And my understanding is that the soul goes on a journey throughout its existence. So we don't always take on human incarnation. Sometimes it's animal, sometimes it's, you know, semi formless, semi physical. And during all of our travels, we gather information, we gather wisdom, we go through learnings and lessons and other realms and realities. And our soul remembers all of that our soul hosts and holds all of that, if you will. So when we come into this human existence, we have all of that wisdom from all of those different places, dimensions, realms, and we can activate it here in our human experience. And so I think of like people who are naturally good at playing piano, or they have these skills that they seem to be born with, and it's like, well, how do they know how to do that? And my guess would be

that that's part of what what's in their soul?

John Moore 7:39

Yeah, I think I mean, I completely agree with that. And I, from a, from one shamanic perspective, I guess, and one of my personal interests, I don't talk a whole lot about it. But one of my personal interests is is looking at Norse spirituality, particularly Norse Old Norse shamanism, which is can be a little tough to unpack, because most of it is written about in very metaphorical language, and the things that are written down, I mean, there are people who have unbroken family traditions going back, you know, 1000 years or something. But there is this concept in so the Norse along with, you know, Kamala and in the Egyptians, and probably lots of other people have a concept of multi part soul, right? Where we sometimes we think of the soul as this just sort of one entity, but I like to think of it almost like the body that there are organs and parts and systems and it can be relatively complex. And one of those parts that the Norse recognizes called the humming Yeah, and that is this. Physically, it's located towards your back. But it's, it's almost hard to describe, it's like the concept of luck, combined with all the stuff that you inherited from your ancestors. And so the and when you the idea is when you one form of reincarnation, when you die, you pass this on to somebody, normally it would be somebody named after in that tradition. Normally, it would be somebody like an ancestor named after you. Down the line, you're like passing on your ancestral wisdom. So that's part of it as well. But one of the things I have found that was a little challenging to get my brain around when I first studied it, when I was looking at past lives, and learning learning like oh, well I can actually be my own ancestor, right. So I can I can have been my you know, 20 F great grandfather, and have incarnated this time around and this body to work through whatever the whatever the ancestral stuff is. that that's coming up. I'm wondering if you ever run into any of the ancestral stuff when you're doing your work?

Susie Beiler 10:10

Um, not, not so much that I'm aware of, I can certainly grasp the idea of that as a possibility. And it is an interesting exploration, right? Because I have in my own family, I have, I wonder sometimes about certain people in my family. And if there are connections that way. It's, it's fascinating. And then then you sort of get into deeper inquiries about well, could part of their soul have reincarnated with this soul? Or?

John Moore 11:00

Yeah, it's, it can be pretty mind boggling. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, and then there's,

I did a class once on parallel life healing, which is something that I do, but that's sort of really mind twisty, that there are other versions of ourselves running around, and other other, you know, split realities, you know, every time, almost every time we make a decision, we're kind of splitting off the tree of causation. So there's potentially infinite versions of ourselves running around out there. And do you think that those infinite versions all have the same soul? Or they all have different souls? I don't, I don't know. To be honest, I don't know how to describe it. I think in my take from it, we.

And I think I'm kind of describing this the same thing that you were describing, but maybe using different language. And I find that that that tends to be true that people are really kind of talking about the same stuff, but have different language to describe it. Sure. So we all come from source, right? Some people call that God or the universe, or the creator, or the grand arkitekter. You know, words don't, words are limited words are very limited to describe what sources. So source is this singularity that has no, I describe it as, like, if you could think of an endless light that has no, no center, and no circumference, it is everywhere, in everything, and across all universes. And so then it like, if you can imagine this infinite bright white light that you stick a prism in front of that split off into all of these little beams of light, different colored beams. Those little beams are like us, we're all kind of thinking of ourselves as these individual beings. But if we trace our, if we trace our route back, we're all coming from the same source. If you were to remove that prism, then we would all just be source again. But if in this is not possible, but if you were to shut off source, we wouldn't exist, they would all cease cease to exist, because we are source, we're just flavors, we're just prisms of light. And that's my, that's sort of my, my take on that. So part of us is every part of it is every I see it as everything's connected to everything. And, you know, it's, it's very difficult to, to, to sort of differentiate, is this, you know, is a parallel life that kind of the same? Are we what are we sharing between parallel lives? Well, you know, we're sharing source, at least, you know, and there must be something we're sharing if this is a version of me on the other side, but to know what that is, when I see it in Germany, it almost looks like a person. You remember the movie, The Matrix, when they had like the green characters running down the screen, when people would go into the matrix. It looks a little bit like that to me, but it's like the shape of the person but like, you know, colors and lights and, you know, and then when you merge the person with this, when you do this parallel life, healing, this merging, the person just gets really, really bright, gets really brighter. It'd be cool though, if I could merge with say, the version of me that that became fluent in French and then all of a sudden start speaking French like that would I would love that. I

Susie Beiler 14:43

call that integrating our soul aspects. So we can put parallel lives parallel universes into that understanding where one soul, we're multi dimensional, we interface with many realms and realities, we're multi faceted as a soul. And so those multifaceted those facets could be parallel lives were parallel universes, right? So when we integrate our soul aspects, that means that we're taking all those different facets of our soul, whether shadow or light, and we're integrating them to heal, to expand to evolve.

John Moore 15:28

Yeah, for sure. And I'm glad you mentioned shadow and because

Shadow Work is a really important part of what I do as well. And so, you know, one of the, I guess synonyms for the shadow is the exile. Right? It's the part of ourselves, we kick out, we're like, I don't want to look at you. Because my parents told me that's not okay. Or I somehow from society told me that part is undesirable, or, you know, I feel like I'm spiritually evolved and shouldn't feel anger anymore, or, you know, whatever, whatever it is, whatever it is, I've decided, I'm going to shoot this part away from me. But that's not any less a part of you than the stuff we we tried to turn towards the stuff we tried to embrace. And I think you're, you know, when I, when I do shadow work with people, it's amazing how much power gets released within people, because they've been, first of all, spending a lot of effort to push this part of themselves down. But also they now they're integrating a part of themselves. They are they're pulling something, and it was something they didn't want to look at before.

Susie Beiler 16:42

But even more power when it's integrated.

John Moore 16:45

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I think so I had this fear. This was my fear when I first started doing shadow work for myself with my teachers. And was that okay, let's say there's this part of me that, I don't know. I mean, there, there isn't. But let's say there's this part of me that wants to be a serial killer. If I integrate like that would be in the shadow, if I integrate that. And that's, you know, I think that's a fear that a lot of people have, like, all of a sudden, I'm gonna pull in these parts of myself that I've locked away for a reason. And it's going to change and I'm all of a sudden going to become antisocial or something like that. And that's not that's, that's not it at all. That's not what that's not what happened. That's not what happens at all right. Right. It's the, it's the holding that stuff down. That's the unhealthy part.

Susie Beiler 17:37

Exactly, yeah. When you integrate a part of yourself, whether it's shadow or light, there is more power there is, you know, it goes back to that core, there's a core of our being a shadow is just a little piece, right? We are or who we were. And so when you integrate that you're just becoming more whole, that's all that's happening, you're not, you're not going to turn into that which you fear. And I also see with with the light people, we also suppress the light. So as much as we suppress the shadow, sometimes we suppress the light, we have just as great a fear of the light sometimes, because of how powerful it is, or because of how illuminating it is, you know, if you integrate an aspect of your light, suddenly you're more illuminated, and it shines light on your shadow. So it's this interesting polarity dance that we do.

John Moore 18:28

It is it is and I and you're absolutely right. Like some people. It's like the fear of success that some people have, there's lots of fear. And it sounds almost counterintuitive. Why would it be afraid of being successful? Or why would I be afraid of being my, you know, approaching my light or really embodying that. And, you know, there's lots of reasons for that. One is that we're very, as human beings, we're very homeostatic, we try to stay, even our bodies try to stay in the same place all the time. Like we we only operate within a very limited temperature range, we only operate within a very limited pH range in our bloodstream, and anything outside of that we get sick, or you know, or worse. And so, sometimes change is scary. But I promise you, if you do shadow or light work, you will not you won't get sick or die. That's not. That's not we're all gonna die someday. But if that's not what's gonna, that's not what's gonna happen during shadow or it will not. If if it was I would be dead by now, trust me. I've been doing lots and lots of lots and lots of that stuff for years. I also want to touch because you mentioned your bio. Well, you mentioned a lot of things that I'm extremely interested in, in stuff that I've talked about quite a lot as well. And you talk about being a living example of embodying the Divine Feminine And the divine masculine. And this is a really, really important topic to me for a lot of reasons. One, because we've been living in a patriarchy for, you know, several 1000 years, and that hasn't served anybody extremely well. But I also think people have kind of a twist, twisted idea of masculinity and femininity that is not has nothing to do with the divine, masculine and feminine. And that causes a lot of problems in our world. So I would love to hear, in your words, how you would describe the divine masculine, and the divine feminine, what balancing those kind of looks like.

Susie Beiler 20:43

For me, the the divine masculine is focused, driven, motivated, grounded.

The, for me, the divine feminine is very receptive, warm, soft. Receiving, I said that already.

Because that's what she is. And there's a very, this is more divine mother, but there's a very, like unconditional love that comes from the divine feminine as well. And not that the divine masculine can't be that, but and not that, not that any of these are exclusive to either one. Sure, yeah. But it's just that there tends to be more of that nature. So as I've been developing the sole power symposium, I've been using my divine masculine, to get stuff done, you know, there are a lot of action items on my list that need to happen and get done. And then I've been using my divine feminine, to receive the right speakers and collaborators to receive the participants that are going to be consuming the content. And so there's this, there's this dance of, you know, making it happen, getting it done and allowing it to happen, and allowing it to be what it's meant to be allowing it to be its own creation. Yeah. feminine, the allowing,

John Moore 22:13

yeah, I was gonna say that is a very feminine concept to me. And when I started out in my practice, I, you know, I think I came from a very, obviously, I'm male, identify as male. And I thought I always had to be doing something, right, I always had to be like, when I'm working with a client, I've got to be in there. And one of the things I found is just sitting back and holding space for people holding non judgmental space, which is very divine feminine. Like, that is, so there's more healing, that is so unbelievably healing. And it seems like while you're while you're not doing anything, you know, kind of kind of, but it's, it's an it's a not doing in a very special way in a very soul empowering way. And it's not the masculine wants to rescue, right. And if I rescue somebody, I'm sort of disempowering them. I'm saying, like, you need to be rescued. And I'm, but I can step back and, you know, offer help and offer support without rescuing. But really, if I can hold space, if I can embrace the feminine aspect, then people will self Empower, they'll heal. And just being witnessed is incredibly, incredibly powerful. I was shocked to discover that myself, but it really, really is, it really is a beautiful thing. And to hold that in. And I love the way that you describe that as being a dance. Right? Because I, I don't know that I've described it that way before. But that makes complete sense to me. That even in even in my work, even if it's one on one working with a client, or if I'm teaching a class, there is this real balance in Okay, now's the time for me to be active and do something. And now is the time for me to sit back and create a nerd just create a nurturing environment for this person to be able to grow and and since I've been really consciously doing that, it's it's been it's been quite eye opening. So yeah,

Susie Beiler 24:37

I love this whole, this whole dance, this whole idea of how they can work together, you know, there's a time for everything. There's a time to move forward. There's a time to pull back. There's time to make things happen. There's a time to allow things to happen. And I've really gotten deeply in tune with those polarities. One is it I don't always get it right but you know, when do I put pull back and allow when do I step forward and take an action. I grew up very much with my in my masculine energy. So I'm very familiar with my masculine and how she he operates. I'm not sure how to say that. I'm very familiar with what that looks like. And for me misusing that has led to burnout, adrenal fatigue had chronic fatigue syndrome. It has led to taking too much action, and spinning my wheels and burning the candle at both ends. And it's like, well, when does the universe get a chance to step in and deliver if I'm always spinning? Right, right, I had to learn I had to learn what and who my feminine is and how to relax into her and how to allow her to take charge, which she doesn't take charge she allows.

John Moore 25:51

I want to, I want to touch a little bit, because you mentioned you mentioned adrenal fatigue, which is something I went through as well. And you mentioned chronic fatigue. And I know that's part of your story and how you came into doing what you do. And I mean, if you if you don't mind talking about that a little bit and how and how you came into doing this very high level soul. I hate to use the word levels like there's, you know, this, but you know, it's very limitations. Yeah, I always, language trips me up all the time. This very empowering soul work that you do like you, you you have, as we all do, we all have a story about how we got attracted into this. But I think it's, I think it's important for people who might be listening to see. And, you know, I will frequently talk about my story, not that I'm trying to say, hey, look how awesome I am. But I'm just some dumb guy in Maine. And if I can heal from all of this stuff, so can you like I'm not special, I'm no better than anybody else. That's not the message, the but the so the message, I like to spread a message of hope I was in a really bad, bad place. And so I don't know if you if you if you feel okay with that, I would love to hear a little bit of your story and how you came into this? Because I do think that is an amazing thing for people to hear about.

Susie Beiler 27:18

Yeah, well, there are a couple of levels and layers to this. So I grew up Mennonite, which is a part of the Christian religion. And it's very, it's a very set way of being and you know, rules you have to follow. And so there was a certain level of spiritual suppression going on with that. And then I also, like I was saying, I grew up in my masculine energy a lot. And so I was misusing my energy and my power in certain ways, you know, making things happen. And then it was also just, I came here for a reason. And I wasn't living my mission. And what I what I did, I was a pediatric occupational therapy. And there was a reason I went through that training, there was a reason I had that career. That was great. That was part of my journey. But that ultimately wasn't what I was meant to spend my time doing. And so my body had to kind of shut down and break down to free me from all the things that I was, you know, in bondage over. So I had a pretty miraculous experience, literally a light bulb moment on the acupuncture table, where all of a sudden, I just had this full knowing on every layer level, and part of my being that I was healed. But I didn't have the chronic fatigue anymore. And then what happened after that was a very dedicated journey, to be on my spiritual path, to live my sole mission to rewire my DNA to rewire my nervous system, to reconfigure everything that didn't work and didn't serve my sole mission. And that has become my sole focus in life. That is, that is who I am. That is what I do. That is my business. That is my play that is like everything is my sole mission. And I just want to say that that path isn't for everyone. So please don't compare yourself to me. Like John was saying, you know, I'm just this guy from Maine. I'm just this gal from Pennsylvania. You know, I'm not special. But I am special in the sense that I have chosen to focus on this and make this my life's work and make this the expression of my mission. So anyone can be special in that way as they choose it.

John Moore 29:36

Absolutely. And I like that you said that I always tell people, you know, I'm going to talk about shamanism a whole lot because that's my path. But I don't recommend shamanism as a path for everybody. It's not, it's not. And I'm just like you, you have found your path. You found the thing and like I can feel when you're talking about that some some real similarities to what happened with me where I'm like, I'm gonna go heal myself. And then I found out, wow, this is my home, this is where I belong, this is what I belong doing. And when you hit that path, like you just, there's just that knowing that you're describing that knowing on all levels. This is what where I meant to be. This is what I meant to do. And I don't know if you found the same thing. But for me, when I found my path, like obstacles would just get pushed out of my way. Like I decided I was going to study shamanism. And I found a teacher who was offering an apprenticeship, and I contacted her and she goes, you've missed the introductory work, you've missed my last introductory class. I don't know, you know, all this, I was like, oh, gosh, I you know, I don't know. It's just Well, I suppose if you meet with me, you know, we'll, we'll talk about it, we'll, we'll figure it out. And I don't know why. But she accepted me and I, you know, I want I spent six years and study with her. And, you know, she is still she's retired from teaching, but she still is my still is my teacher. And you know, just lots and lots of things got moved, lots of obstacles got moved out of my path. And I think that just happens when you're, when you're in the right space, when you're doing what you what you're meant, meant to be doing. And I think, you know, in Sanskrit, they might call it your dharma, right, your path, this is your, your path. And that's really individual for every, for everybody, you know, could be who knows what?

Susie Beiler 31:41

I would say yes, and no, I've, I've had those experiences. Yeah. Where it feels miraculous, like something just opens up. And I've also had those experiences where I have had to work incredibly hard for who I am for what I have in this life, to heal. And, and this is where I do feel it's different for everyone. And this was part of my understanding of the soul journey, whatever it is that I'm meant to achieve accomplish here, whatever in this lifetime, according to my soul, that's what I'm going to come in contact with. And I'm, I'm very much have the understanding and and the decision that I am getting it done this lifetime. So I don't know if that means I have more to overcome or more to heal or you know, but I have stuff built up from other realms realities, lifetimes, however you want to understand it that I need to take care of in this lifetime. I don't know if that just means that I'm in my own way. And in my mind sometimes, you know, I don't I don't know what it all means. I just know that my path has looked a certain way. I'm open to it being different. But I have had to overcome a lot. Sure. And, and sometimes, yeah, that has opened up when I have those breakthroughs. It opens up the pathways. And sometimes the pathways just open and it seems like I didn't have to do anything. So I feel like some of that is all kind of orchestrated at the soul level and it's not my business almost.

John Moore 33:28

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more and in. In shamanism we talk about initiation a lot and initiation. You might go through a ceremony and I've went through a two year process of doing ceremony after ceremony, initiate initiation ceremonies, those are ceremonies. That's not what initiation is, though, when you go through a ceremony that a teacher or shamans putting you through that ceremony, but spirit initiates you and initiation on a shamanic level, which is I think anybody goes through this when you talk about things coming up and obstacles you have to overcome. I described as like putting your life in one of those snow globes and sticking it in a paint shaker and just shaking the heck out of it in those industrial paint mixers. Because that definitely, I mean, that's, that definitely has happened to me, I've gone through, you know, I've gone through relationships, I got divorced in the middle of my training, I you know, wound up in a relationship with, you know, somebody that ended in a really not so great way and I've been through huge, huge transitions. And you can't really you right, you can't really steer that so much. But I think there is absolutely a purpose to that to those initiations happening like it's, it's almost like you know, taking you apart so you can put yourself back together.

Susie Beiler 34:58

Now, I know that All my deaths and rebirths have been part of the teaching and the guidance that I offer others. There's so much depth in what I've gone through that when a client comes to me, there are very few people I can't help at this point because of what I've gone through.

John Moore 35:17

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And you know, when, when you become aware, when you hang up at this, when you become aware of your past and your parallel lives, and all this, this stuff coming in? Nothing surprises or shocks you so much anymore. You know, I talked to people a time ago, this is gonna sound weird, and I'm like, trust me. Nothing is gonna sound weird to me. And maybe something I've never encountered before. That's unlikely, but, um, you know, nothing. You told me. I'm gonna go wow, that is so out there. I couldn't I can't even conceive of that. Nothing's gonna shock me at that level at this point.

Susie Beiler 36:06

Yeah, it's funny when not funny, but you know, clients will come and they'll be scared to share something. And I'm like, Listen, this is a safe space. Yeah. Kind of seen it all. Like, you're addicted to porn, okay, no big deal right now. Like, just all these things that people are so embarrassed or ashamed of? And it's like to, let's just put it into the light. You know, we'll take care of it. It's no big deal.

John Moore 36:34

Right. Right. Yeah. And, and, but it is, it's challenging. Because people are used to modalities where they are judged for what they do. Like, you know, the medical model can be, can be in there are lots of great physicians out there. And I have I've had, in my shamanic training, I've had doctors and dentists and therapists and psychologists, I've had people, and I love that I love to see that I love to see people doing integrative things. A, I like to point this out, a giant Hawk just flew through the back of my yard. So while we're chatting here, always a really good sign. But, yeah, I mean, but yeah, I have people come to me with all kinds of stuff. And I just, I'm like, I never going to judge you. And, you know, and if during the session, something comes up, like you want to cry, you want to scream, you want to call me names, do it, whatever, pull it up, it wants to come out, once it comes out, you're, you know, it's, it's, you're gonna feel better. It's the holding that stuff down again, it's that pushing that stuff into the shadow. Because it's not okay for me to feel angry, or it's not okay for me to feel sad, or it's not okay for me to admit to somebody that I take recreational drugs are addicted to porn, or whatever, whatever it is that people are doing. First of all, you're not alone there, you know, millions of other people out there with the same things going on for them. And second of all, who am I to judge anybody? I'm not like I'm here to show up as I'm sure you are. I'm here to show up in love and love is non judgmental. It's, you know, it just is it just holds you it is it is complete and acceptance. And that is healing for so many people that in itself, even if I did nothing else, but just let people talk to me in a non judgmental way. It's like talk therapy. You know, the research shows that something like 85 to 90% of the benefit of talk therapy is just the relationship with the therapist. Like the technique doesn't matter that much in talk therapy. You'd be doing anything as long as they're not as long as they're letting you talk and not judging you. Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? How we're built to heal from to heal that way.

Susie Beiler 39:10

Yeah, just to hold like you were saying earlier to hold space for somebody most of us in this life don't have the experience of truly having someone hold space for us. So that isn't in and of itself is deeply healing it's profound.

John Moore 39:29

Yeah, yeah. It it really is and I have been I have been blessed to have many practitioners as friends who have you know, I can I can you know if I feel like I need some work I can I have lots of people I can go to but I have had that I've had that experience and it's it's so it's hard to describe how beautiful it is from the other side but it's even be it's beautiful from this side as well. Like I feel amazing when I can do that for somebody When I see somebody getting a benefit from that I, I don't want to do anything else like this is this is it? This part of the reason why this is my path? It's there is no, there is no high like that, that I that I have ever experienced. There's nothing there's nothing quite like it and it's it's a little bit I'm sure you've seen way it's hard to describe almost.

Susie Beiler 40:23

It's deeply fulfilling to be able to hold a non judgmental space for someone. And and I will say my work with channeling the Prime Creator energy has really boosted my ability to do that has really taught me a lot because when I first started bringing through the energy, I was like, wow, there's no judgement here. And I I have tended in my past to be very judgmental. And so it was very interesting to feel that energy contrast with mine because I'm a conscious channel I'm very, you know, aware when I'm bringing through the energy. And so I will feel my judgment, and then I'll feel Prime Creator energy and there's no judgment. And I'm like, Oh, this is interesting. You know, I get to notice my judgments.

John Moore 41:05

Yeah, yeah. Let's I just we're we're, you know, we're coming up toward I can't believe we've been talking for the summer we're coming up towards the end of talk, but I want to it because I'm really interested in channeling and I have done I do some channeling but not. I don't really do it with clients that much. I do it for for as part of my training part of my other work and whatever. And I do it. I do it consciously as well. I'm aware of what's going on. And some people might not know the, like the different types of channeling there are there are people who are what they call like deep trance channelers, who will go into like a very deep trance and channel and have no memory whatsoever of what's happened. When that and I get the feeling that when you describe yourself as a conscious channel, that's not the experience that you're

Susie Beiler 42:01

not my experience. Yeah, I don't always remember what comes through. Because sometimes the energy is intense. Sometimes there's a lot of information. I don't always retain it. But I am the way it works for me is I'm a clairsentience. So I feel very, very deeply very acutely. So I'll feel the energy will ask a question, I'll feel the energy of the answer. And then I My job is to find words, to match up with the energy I feel. And that's, that's the imperfect part, right? Like, I just want to be clear that this is not an infallible scientific practice. This is an imperfect, you know, situation where I'm receiving the energy, and I've got to find words to put to it. And in most cases, I'm pretty accurate. But you know, I'm, I'm human, I have my filters. Right. So my interpretation of the energy might not always be 100%.

John Moore 42:58

Yeah, yeah, in for me, when I had to learn. And this was really hard, I had to learn to put as little interpretation on it as possible. I had to put enough, I had to describe things enough to get the message across. But the more I tried to describe and interpret and this could mean this and this could mean that then I'm like, I'm just putting my own stuff on top of that, right? I'm just, you know, this may or may not true. So I learned to trust to trust and sort of surrender kind of early on ago. I'm just gonna tell you what happened. I'm just gonna give it to you. And it may or may not mean anything to you. And 99% of the time, people are like, Whoa, I don't know how you knew that. And like, I don't know how I knew that either. And I probably didn't know that somebody else knew that and just gave me the information I don't want to take, I don't take credit for anything. I've just a mouthpiece at this point.

Susie Beiler 43:59

I'm just the messenger.

John Moore 44:01

So if it's accurate, you know, thank them. You know, you can thank me for not trying to interpret it using my very limited human brain. And that's about it. But yeah, I mean, the the I hadn't done any channeling before and I you know, shamanic practices you know, you're doing similar things and that you're merging with helping spirits a lot and you're staying merged with them but I had a teacher when they should just like you're going to work on murder channeling you are going to you are going to channel and I was like, I don't know, you know, I don't know if I can do this. And it turned out to be just a really really incredible experience. And I guess maybe I maybe I hold it back and don't do it so much because it don't do so much publicly. And maybe I should but I like it's a little bit sacred for lack of a better term like I kinda like, hold on, hold on to it on my own. And I, I will do it with people that I'm close to and that I that, you know, have a level of understanding and that sort of thing. So I don't know, maybe I'm holding myself back a little bit.

Susie Beiler 45:13

What does your soul say about John?

John Moore 45:16

That's a good question. I should check in. Yeah, I mean, my soul wants to be out. My soul wants to be everywhere, and out and about. So that's why, you know, I'm, I'm all over the place. That's, that's, that's a big part of it. But But yeah, I mean, I should do, I should do some more of that. But I do think that there are a lot of people maybe who channel who channel wisdom, maybe not directly, the maybe they're not trance channeling or that sort of thing. But there are a lot of people who get messages from spirits stuff comes through. And like, I don't know where I got this from, or I don't know where I got this from. And I know lots of people are sort of unconscious clairsentient people, just like, I don't know why. But I feel like I have to go do that this right now. And my mom, my mom was my mom is one of those people where I years and years ago when I was in college, my aunt passed away all of a sudden, the middle of night brain aneurysm. So it was like she wasn't sick. There's nothing expected. It was really weird. And she was declared brain dead at like 425 in the morning. And at that exact moment, my mom shot straight up in bed, looked at the clock, looked at my stepfather and said, Something's happened. I'm going downstairs to sit by the phone and went down and sat by the phone until a couple hours later, somebody somebody called her to tell her what had happened. But yeah, so I could never get away with it. My mom always knew, my mom always knew it was up to no good.

Susie Beiler 46:58

moms know anyway. But then, on top of that, I want to say I want to say that we are all channels, yes, we all bring through information, wisdom, fluff, crap, whatever we all bring stuff through. And it's important that we make a choice about what we're going to bring through. Yeah, yeah, that's very important. And when I really learned that lesson, hardcore when I started channeling, you know, several months into it, I started having all these beings wanting to use my voice to speak. And I was like, oh, like, no, yeah, you're not the right frequency, or, you know, I really had to set a boundary with the light realm and say, This is the energy I'm bringing through. Nothing else. So yeah, we, we are all channels, whether we, you know, bring through spirit or something else, we're all channels, and we need to make a choice and set boundaries about what we will bring through these vessels.

John Moore 48:00

That is a that is a really good point. And one of the things I talk about with people who are studying with me, for example, is that once you start to do this work, you light up, right, like you're lit up. And, you know, we exist, as you said, on all of these different realms and playing simultaneously. But we may not be really lit up. And there are lots of beings, there's just sort of like, oh, that's just another person that you know, whatever. And then you're like a neon light, all of a sudden, in the middle of the desert, and lots of beings are going to be attracted because they're like, Oh, here's somebody who can I can communicate with or communicate through. And it's not necessarily that they are quote, unquote, evil beings, but they're just, you know, it's like picking up hitchhikers. You know, you don't necessarily want to just open yourself up to every, every being out there, you do want to have those boundaries. I think that's a really good point to make with people I've worked worked with and met a lot of people who sort of blew their doors wide open. Usually, usually through the use of entheogens or hallucinogenic drugs, take everything under the sun, and then they come in and I can see beings just flying like bugs flying around their head and their eyes don't focus. And I've seen people who are seeing things like in the physical world, but not looking at them just like reaching over and grab because they're not looking through their own eyes. At that point, they've picked up hitchhikers and that you start to lose that boundary between what's you and you know, because oh, all of a sudden I have these I can I have the second sight ability. Well, that's cool. If it's yours. It's cool if it's your second, right.

Susie Beiler 49:55

You know, this is I get a transition because this is why the sole power is imposed. Zumba is so important that yeah, we're really teaching people how to get in touch with their essence, their soul, I have a practice that I do with activating the soul essence. And that's going to be something that's part of the soul power symposium for the entire 13 days people will have access to that video to work with the material of activating their soul essence, and cultivating the soul essence, so that we're filling ourselves with us, not other things, not other beings. Right? That's really important.

John Moore 50:35

Fill up. That's great. And for those we taught, we've touched on a little bit, but the soul power symposium is this 13 Day event that's happening at the kind of the search June 20. Oh, the solstice June 21. Yeah, that, gosh, I don't know, I didn't put that together in my head. June 21. There are what 12 1211

Susie Beiler 51:02

presenters plus myself, okay.

John Moore 51:05

So 11 presenters, I happen to be one of them. So if you enjoy my podcast, I will definitely include I will include links to all of Susy stuff, but there will also be links to that. And where that is particularly time sensitive. I mean, I apologize if you're live listening to this two years from when we're putting it out there. But if you're hearing this in the beginning of June, and this, and I say this, because of myself, this is what I do, I'm like, I see something like, Oh, that's really cool, I want to do that I'm gonna register for that tomorrow. Like, don't do that, because you're gonna go where was that link again, you know, whatever, just click on the link and and, and go register for that you will not regret it. I am going to tune in to all of these different teachers. And I think our chat was really cool. As we had a really cool chat about soul stuff about this, this, all of this stuff. So I think it's I think it's a really fantastic opportunity to really become empowered. And this is, this is the kind of stuff that I love that I absolutely love about spiritual work this this really like, let's discover who you are at a core level, it's discover how powerful how incredibly powerful you are, you're going to surprise yourself.

Susie Beiler 52:36

And I really want to highlight June 21, because that's when the Prime Creator channeling will be available for free for 24 hours during 21st. That's the solstice June 23. Don't forget, and that is the foundation for the entire symposium. So if you miss the channeling, you kind of miss the foundation for the whole thing. So please what John said, register now so that you get the emails to remind you. Yeah, and to receive the content June 21 is a big day.

John Moore 53:09

Yeah, yep. And, you know, I, I, you know, I follow the Wheel of the Year. And so those are the solstices and equinoxes. And half in the halfway points between those super important days, they're there days of big transitions where you can where things like big shifts can happen, just because of the energy of the planet and the sun and what we're going through. And it's a really, really good time. And I summer solstice, in particular, for me, is a great time to begin anything. I don't know if other people find that, but it's a really good place to start. Where Winter Solstice for me is I'm almost going into hibernation by that point. I'm celebrating. I'm celebrating all the hard work that I've done. But I'm almost ready to go into hibernation. But June 21, I am ready to hit the ground running and work on whatever it is I'm working on. So definitely, definitely get registered for that. Well, we are we've been talking for just about an hour, it doesn't seem like that I could, I'm sure talk to you for a lot longer. And I would love to have you on again sometime. But I want to I want to thank you for coming on. And I also want to give you a chance if there's any sort of last messages or last anything you want to talk about before we before we

Susie Beiler 54:32

yeah, we'll just invite everyone to put a hand over their belly over their solar plexus and just take a nice deep breath and just feel yourself grounded in your body.

They just invite you to set an intention now for what you want in your life for your sole mission for your life purpose.

if there's something that you desire that would make executing your life mission easier for you just ask for that now as you breathe

is done. It is done. It is done

John Moore 55:22

thank you, thank you very, very much. It's been it's been so delightful having you on and I'm so looking forward to June 21 coming up. I'm super, super excited about it. So thank you again, we'll definitely have you on again. So, you'll you'll, you'll hear you'll hear some music again and somebody else's somebody else's voice and then and then and then we'll end the right button

Announcer 56:19

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to maineshamin.com That's MAINESHAMAN.com

Ep47 Magick, Mysticism, Esoterric, and Exoteric

Announcer 0:28

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:43

Hello, hello. Hello, everybody. I have missed you all. I don't know if you miss me. It's been. It's been a long time since I have done a podcast episode. There is a good reason for that. I have been astoundingly busy launching a brand new shamanic community that I'm very excited about, it's doing very well, but required some significant effort on my part in the part of my partner who's working on it. And you know, it's a fantastic thing. And if you are, if you practice shamanism, this is a good community for you to be supported to journey together to get prompts to get self care tips to learn new things. It really is amazing. I'm getting a lot out of it myself, even as a as a co host and founder. And the URL for that is ShamanCommunity.com. So you can check it out there. And see what we're up to. Today is a beautiful spring day, it's going to be where I am in the 60s, Ferrant and that's Fahrenheit or centigrade, we'd be in big trouble. It's gonna be a beautiful day the sun is up, it's shining, the Chipmunks are running around the birds are out, I have to get some more bird seed for my feeders. And feed my little feathered friends, do a little, do a little work outside as well. So anyway, today, I want to talk about magic and mysticism, and the esoteric and the exoteric and you know, some different aspects of spirituality and just bring some thought into these paths and what they're about and sort of what we define as magic and what we define as mysticism and what is exoteric and what is esoteric. And I'm gonna start by saying that, you know, I am going to be talking about some religions here. And they don't, you know, I being a person who does not belong to an organized religion. But I respect people's choice to do so. I don't want to I don't want this to come across as me bashing anybody's religion, far from it. But I'm gonna talk about the, you know, some history of things. And not everybody's history is beautiful, and wonderful. I mean, it's tempting to believe that it's tempting to say, you know, Christianity is all about love. But then you look at the crusades, and the Inquisition and burning witches at the stake. And, you know, there. This isn't about the religion. These things were done in the name of the religion, this is about people justifying horrible actions, using religion. So I'm not talking about that at all. But I'm going to delve into perhaps a little bit of history. And if anything I say disagrees with what you believe that is totally fine. We can disagree and still be friends, can we not? We're living in a very divisive age, politically, spiritually, economically. Let's not make this another area that has to necessarily divide us. And I, you know, I fully believe that everybody is on their own path. Everybody is on a completely unique path. I don't know care if you are a shamanic practitioner, like myself, we're still in different paths, and no to Christians and no to Jews and no to Muslims and no to everybody is unique. Everybody is living their own thing, their own life, their own path. And we should start by recognizing that. And the other thing is, when we look around at the world and up the universe, what we see is a mind boggling and astounding infinity of diversity. Right?

Think of how many species of beetles there are on this planet, how many species of plants and fungus and mushrooms or mushrooms or fungus, how many different types of minerals there are, and that's just on this planet. You know, we're a speck of dust in a gigantic Galaxy full of billions of stars swirling around in a universe that's made up of billions of galaxies. And there are probably an infinite number of parallel universes. It's hard to get your brain around all of it. And so to think that any one person has it has it right for the rest of the universe is pretty haughty. It's you're kind of putting yourself in the place of the Creator. And I'll use the word, I'll use the word God sort of interchangeably here. And the word God has a lot of baggage with it. So sometimes I don't use it. Sometimes I'll say source or the universe, or the creator. But I want to dissociate from the idea of God as this white bearded male who lives in the clouds, and who gets angry a lot, and decides to commit genocide, and, you know, that sort of thing. And I'll talk about that when I get to talking about mysticism a little bit more, this morning. And one thing I'm going to do, and that I always do, when I talk about things, I will define my terms. And if you've listened to this podcast before, you're proud, you may be sick of hearing me say this. But it's an important distinction I make. And it's important thing that I call out. For people who might not have listened to my podcast before, that when I define things when I say this is what magic means. And this is what mysticism means. And this is esoteric exoteric. It's not that I want my definition to supersede yours. Or that there's one way of defining anything, there isn't. It's only that I want you to have a better understanding of what I mean, when I'm using these words. And that's it. If your definition of something disagrees with mine, then that's totally fine. I think we can both be right. Okay. And everything happens in context anyway. So when I describe things, it is in the context of my life and my studies and my practice. And like I said, no two people are on the same path, we're all going to the same place, ultimately. But no two people are on the same path. And so your context is different than mine, even if, and here's a good. Here's a good example of this. I have I have identical twin daughters. And the word identical is a little strange to me. Because my daughters are very different. They look a lot alike. They share genetics. They were born a minute apart, and essentially have close to identical astrological charts. Yet they are very different personality wise. The things they like the things they dislike. There are similarities, of course, like any two human beings or any siblings raised in the same household, so they're raised in the same household at the same time. Then environmental factors the same they went to the same schools. You know, they have had different friends, they have had different teachers, they like, different, you know, they they have things in common with, with many other 15 year olds, you know, things they watch, they like Snapchat and Tiktok. But they're very different people. Very different. And they have been since birth. So

thinking about these children that have, you know, that shared genetics, they weren't started as a single fertilized egg, that split apart. single egg, single sperm, same genetic material, split apart in the womb. And we know that they are, we know they are identical. Because they shared a single placenta, which only happens with identical twins. It's called mono, they're monochorionic. Twins, they do not share a single a single sack they had, which is good, because that's very dangerous. And chances are that one one of them would not have survived. That is amniotic sac. And this, I guess, my understanding of this is, it's it depends on when the egg, the fertilized egg splits into two different children. But, you know, can you imagine in the womb, there's this clump of fertilized cells that could grow into a single being, and for some unknown reason, that splits into two, two independent beings. They live in the same environment for you know, it wasn't quite nine months, they were born prematurely, but they live in the same environment and get the same nutrient nutrients, essentially, and have the same genetics and they were born behaving completely different, differently. And my explanation for that is that they have different souls. There are different souls in those little bodies. And they're very different, and their paths may be different. And we have raised them to follow their own path. Their mother is Catholic, nobody is forcing them to be Catholic. I am a non religious, but very spiritual person. And I practice shamanism and nobody's forcing them to practice shamanism. So very different. And everybody's on the same path. And this is a long way of me saying, if we differ in our viewpoint on things, it's totally fine. And my entire intention for this is just to give you some things to think about. And I don't want you to believe everything I say. In fact, I invite you to disbelieve everything I say, or to take it for what one teacher told me is this expression a lot. Take it for checking. And another teacher of mine would say everything I tell you is BS until you make it until you study it and make it your own. To prove it for yourself. This is very different than a lot of systems, religious systems, spiritual systems that tell you don't ever question anything. Don't question anything. You question things that's blasphemy. Don't question things. Question everything my friends. Stay on your path. I don't care. Do what you want to do. But question everything. So anything I say you don't have to believe and I expect you not to, unless it makes sense to you. Unless you do some exploration and it makes sense to you. But I want to give you some things to think about today. Today I'm talking about my two of my very favorite topics, magic and mysticism. And I'm gonna talk also about exoteric and esoteric. So exoteric e x and esoteric E S. Spirituality. We'll start there a little bit. So exoteric spirituality exoteric means like outer the outer form. So you go to church and you pray and you read the books and you say And when you go to temple or you go to a mosque, or you go to satsang, or you, you know, whatever, whatever it is you go to, or you have this sort of outward practice these outward teachings of your form of spirituality. And maybe you have doctrine, maybe you have books that are full of stories like the Bible, or the Koran, or the Torah, or the, you know, the other. Any other spiritual books, the Vedas, the

Dhammapada, the, you know, I'm losing track of all the spiritual books there are. So you have doctrine, and you have dogma and you have outward facing rituals, right? You go to Mass you go to, you know, do whatever. That stuff is very exoteric. And I'm going to, I'm going to talk about, I'm gonna talk about Christianity quite a lot, just because it is the religion I'm most familiar with having been raised in a couple of different Christian churches and having, you know, gun to church for at least some of my wayward youth. And I gotta tell you, it didn't keep me out of trouble. I was a natural born rebel, I guess, just gonna have a little sip of my coffee here. So, so I'm going to talk about Christianity, but these things are not. You know, these are examples. And these things happen in every sort of, form of spirituality that has been made into a religion, and organized religion. So again, the exoteric is the outer stuff, and the esoteric is the hidden stuff. And one might be one might believe that there is no esoteric Christianity, or there is no esoteric Islam. I mean, we certainly know about esoteric forms of Judaism, Kabbalah is, has, you know, lots of esoteric stuff in it. But I will tell you that there is a lot of Jewish esoteric mysticism, brought into Christianity. And I'll give you an example of this. I'll give you just one tiny example of this. And then I'll also talk about some of the other forms of esoteric Christianity. So if you're a Christian, you're most likely familiar with the Lord's Prayer. And at the end of the Lord's Prayer is a phrase for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever amen. Or something very close to that. And kingdom power and glory in Hebrew malkuth net sock and HOD our directs come directly from Kabbalah whoever wrote that prayer, and I believe that many Christian sects believe that Jesus himself handed down that prayer. And that would, you know, I have no idea of the historicity of it, but that would certainly make sense. But that part of the prayer contains a very potent invocation that comes directly from Jewish mysticism. And if you're at all familiar with Kabbalah, or you can, you can look it up. You know, Cabela's, it can be spelled lots of different ways, because it's, you know, technically it's spelled in Hebrew. So when we transliterate it to English, some people spell it with a K and two L's and an H. And some people spell it with a Q and some people spell it with a C. And it did come into modern knowledge from you know, sort of medieval Jewish writers as the first and the word Qabalah comes from the Jewish word kibble. I may be pronouncing this incorrectly I don't really speak. Not really, I don't speak Hebrew at all. I just know a few words here and there. But it comes from hippo, which means received like it was an oral tradition and then Some rabbi in the Middle Ages, I think in Spain, I think in Spain, actually wrote wrote the some of the first books first person to commit this stuff to writing because it was so it was hidden, it was esoteric. You had to go study with the Essenes or somebody to learn this stuff. And their stories that,

you know, when Jesus was 13, he was recognized as being very wise. And, you know, 13 is the age of majority in, in Jewish tradition, right? It's when you have your Bar Mitzvah, or your nowadays, your button mitzvah. And I didn't realize that, but mitzvahs haven't been around that long. And they were pretty much I think they were invented in the US, as a matter of fact, now it's much more commonplace. But Bar Mitzvahs, or when having at the age of 13, and we have stories of Jesus going to the temple and discussing topics, and then there's nothing about him until he's around 30. And some stories have him going off to study with this mystical group out in the desert called the scenes. Ultimately, we don't know I mean, you know, we can, we can take guesses and stuff. But, you know, if he did, indeed, depen, or recite the Lord's Prayer, it contains Jewish mystical wisdom in Jewish mystical knowledge. And I think that's pretty cool. And they're, you know, there were other there are other very esoteric practice practices and Christianity, you know, hidden stuff. We get, you know, not forms of Gnosticism, a lot of it was heresy, a lot of a lot of the esoteric stuff got wiped out. And the reason for that is, you know, the, through many of the Christian eras, the different eras in Christian history, starting with, you know, the Holy Roman Empire, and, you know, then on to the crusades, and the inquisitions. A lot of this stuff was about political power. And again, I'm not, I'm not talking crap about people who believe in Christianity or practice Christianity, I'm talking about organizations that used Christianity as a weapon of control and domination, and committed genocide and all things that are not Christian ideals. You know, converting people at the point of a sword is not very Christian. When I was a kid, I always wondered about the, you know, Onward Christian Soldiers that they sang, as I thought Jesus was about love. You know, oh, that's not what we're singing about. Yes, it is. It is, in fact. So, Christianity in the early early ages, when, you know, during the Holy Roman Empire, and during the crusades, and things like that, so for like, the first 1000 years, was strongly associated with the military. And that's how it got spread. It wasn't. Christianity in the beginning, was a sort of an offshoot sect of Judaism. And it wasn't, it wasn't until, you know, while after Jesus's death, of course, he didn't, you know, they didn't call themselves Christians before his death. It wasn't until well after that, that, you know, they started recruiting Gentiles and non Jewish people. And, you know, by then, we're looking at the teachings of other people besides Jesus Himself. And then it wasn't until, you know, the fourth century of the Council of Nicaea, where they actually decided they voted on many things, including which books would go in the Bible and which ones wouldn't, because there were a lot of books circulating at the time. You know, the gospel of Thomas is one of those. So, you know, there were these Gnostic Gospels, the Gospel of Judas. You know, it talks about talks about Jesus kissing Mary Magdalene and her being preferred among In His apostles, but because Christianity was adopted by a Roman Empire, and

you know, the army was forced to be Christian and the pagan temples got overturned and all this stuff, it was very patriarchal. And to this day, there are still many patriarchal remnants, the Catholic Church will not make women priests or cardinals, for example. You know, that has changed somewhat in some other denominations, but it is, you know, it is what it is very patriarchal. And so, Christianity spread around the world at the point of a sword, and it wasn't, because people were like, Hey, this is some people were, but very, very few. Imagine, you know, you're following the religion of your ancestors forever. For all your memory, and somebody comes along and says, hey, guess what, my religion is better than yours. And if you believe this, you're going going to heaven? Well, most people are going to, you know, whether doesn't matter if you believe that your religion is the one true religion, or that you testify to that fact. If I showed up at your house right now, whatever your spiritual belief in knocked on your door, and tried to set sell you on worshipping squirrels, most people, and I'm not comparing Christianity to worshipping squirrels, I'm using this as a terrible example, a stupid example, an absurd example. Most people would say, go take a flying leap. And the same would be true of Christianity as well, for a very long time. In many places, you know, it came in late to many areas, and it would take sort of, you know, either a king, adopting Christianity, realizing that it was a great way to control control people, and use it for political power. And, you know, hang on to that patriarchal system of power, and then forcing everybody to convert. And that's what happened. And because the Roman Empire was so huge, you know, it went from Asia Minor to, you know, to Egypt to you know, all the way to what is now the UK, to Britain, Ireland, Scotland. Although, you know, the Christianity didn't go into Ireland and Scotland quite late as well. Which is interesting to consider how religious, Irish, you know, the Irish tend to be, but there is a lot of, you know, what happens there a lot. When Christianity goes into an area, I've seen this in the Philippines, which is predominantly Catholic, and I've seen this in Ireland, and a lot of local stuff gets pulled in. So they have St. bridgid, in Ireland is essentially took over for bridgid, a goddess, a goddess of the hearth and of blacksmiths. In Ireland became, became a saint, a Catholic saint, we see that a lot, quite a lot, as a matter of fact. Um, so there's some stuff, you know, there's stuff that gets mixed in, makes it easier to convert and then the holidays get converted, right, we put Christmas on December 25, which was Saturnalia. We put Easter, you know, in Ostara, we put, you know, we put we put a lot of the holidays and stuff to eclipse the pagan stuff. You know, there was the, you know, all that lots of replacement happening. Anyway, let me get to So, the outer stuff is the exoteric. And the hidden stuff is esoteric. And there is esoteric Christianity. It survives to this day. But again, it's esoteric, it's hidden. There's esoteric practices in Judaism, which are a little bit more well known because they were written down and they were adopted by other traditions. So in Western ceremonial magic for example, there is a lot of Kabbalah this I'm listening to an audio book on Kabbalah by Dion fortune, who is a

Christian magician, I guess, ceremonial magician. I will say that it comes off as by today's standards that comes off as quite racist. She's talking about the white races and stuff like that. It's a little tough, it's a little bitter. But you get past that stuff. You know, there there is still, there's still good mystical, magical learnings there. So there's lots of you know, there's lots of that in. In Islam, for example, the esoteric stuff, you find, well, you find mystics among the Sufis, for example, and there's probably significant esoteric teachings there. But I also know that there are there is Islamic magic dealing with the jinn or what we might call we, in English might call genies, which are spirits of the, you know, spirits that live in the desert. Many consider them devils, but that comes from pre Islamic stuff. And what happened when a lot of these religions took over, is they turned everybody else's Gods goddesses and local spirits into devils and demons. Definitely happened with Christianity. If you think about the God, the, you know, the god Pan from the Greek, from Greek paganism, you know, cloven hooves and horns, sounds a lot like the devil doesn't it. And the word demon comes from the Greek a daemon, which just means spirits. And there were good demons and bad demons. And in you know, you had a house demon, which is the spirit that lived in your house that took care of things. They weren't angels that rebelled against the one true God and fell from heaven. And that was, that came much later. That stuff so you know, when they would go in, they would eclipse the holidays, they would replace the holidays with Christian holidays, they would burn the temples to the ground, they would force people to convert or kill them, they would erect churches on on older holier sites, this happened. This happened in the British Isles quite a lot in just talking to somebody the other day who is biking along ley lines, which are these lines of, I don't have those these lines of spiritual current that run through everywhere. But it's easy to map in the UK, because there are churches built along them, because that were built on earlier pagan sites. So it's one way to sort of give give the middle finger to the pagans was to, like, take over there, take over their sacred sites and build a church on top of them. So, there's still a lot of esoteric stuff going on, you know, less of it, a lot of it got wiped out. They, you know, they burned the libraries in Alexandria. So we lost a lot of knowledge in the West. Unfortunately, in the east, you know, magic and mysticism is blended with everyday life quite beautifully. You know, you can, you know, if you go to Japan, you can go to a Buddhist temple, or Shinto shrine, and in most people, their practice kind of both, I mean, 80% of people in Japan consider themselves Shinto, which is an animistic religion that has, I would say, mystical practices, you know, you know, they do a lot, there's a lot of purification rituals involving water and fire and all kinds of stuff. And you can go to a Buddhist temple and you can practice meditation there, you can practice Zen, which is a very, you know, technically mystical practice. Meditation is akin to mysticism. Because it is about it is about well, we'll talk about I'll give you the definition of mysticism in a moment, but so In the east, it's a little more difficult to differentiate between exoteric and esoteric practices, because spiritual practices vary widely. And a lot of them are out in the open. I will say this, though there are places

there are places that are very closed in the east, for example, there are certain mystical markets, for example, in Nepal, where Westerners are not allowed, there are certain practices that you would not be allowed to participate in or see, you know, that sort of thing. And in, in Judaism, we have the story of the Ark of the Covenant, which I find fascinating. And, you know, so if you've seen Raiders of the Lost Ark, or if you know anything about it, you'll know, you know, is this box in which a number of things were kept, including the 10 commandments. And the instructions for building this box are no were are in the Bible, and you can read them in a certain size box. And it's made out of wood, and is lined inside and out with gold and contains an elixir inside a certain elixir and has, you know, it was one of the things compose inside and then has these essentially, what they're what they call Caribs, but they're sphinxes. On top of the box, you might think of Caribs or cherubs as little fat babies with wings. But that's Renaissance art for you. Real kerubim, which is an Order of Angels were sphinxes. So the body of a lion, but they had wings, usually the head of a man and they had wings. And so many people have posited that the Ark of the Covenant was a giant battery. And when you read some of the stories about it, like casting lightning, that sometimes caused the high priest to explode, you know, and that it was kept, it was kept covered inside the Holy of Holies. And I don't know if it was once a year or whatever. You know, the high priest would go in and lay his hands on it, and sometimes would explode. And he would go into this chamber, he was the only one allowed in, and he would have a rope tied around his ankle. So if the thing killed him, which happened with some level of frequency, his, you know, other priests could pull his body out of the chamber. So a lot of it sounds like it's a giant battery. And there are, there have been, there have been working batteries, or what would have been working batteries recovered in ancient Egypt and ancient Mesopotamia. Look up the Babylon battery, if you don't believe me. We're missing. You know, in the modern ages, we're missing a lot of ancient technology that we haven't found because, you know, to be honest stuff that's 10,000 years old decomposes. Even if it's made out of metal, we really only have a lot of things. Most of what we have has to be made out of stone, because it doesn't decompose quickly. Or it's been preserved by being in a desert somewhere, which is why we have working batteries from Egypt and Mesopotamia electrical batteries. So we have an acid solution, we have an insulator, we have, you know, an anode and a cathode. And, you know, this thing probably did give off lightning, they probably collected charge out of the atmosphere for a long time in more than a battery was probably, you know, a giant capacitor. Judging strictly by the instructions on how to build this thing, it would have served as a capacitor. So anyway, you imagine like once a year or however were however frequently going in and laying your hands on this thing, not knowing if you're going to explode. But even priests who didn't explode were often I'm struck down by the power of the Ark of the Covenant, which was seen as the power of God.

And not to take anything from anyone's beliefs or anything, but you know, I mean, electricity is a pretty amazing thing. And if you think that source or God created the universe, then everything is electrical. You know, everything has electrons. So we could say that this is a power of, of God, indeed. God's great lightning. So, that's exoteric. And esoteric. exoteric is the stuff that everybody sees going church reading the Bible. Esoteric is frequently, sometimes written down, but frequently word of mouth stuff, or stuff written in cipher, or hidden in images, or written an allegory. So let me tell you some a little bit about a little bit about the, the, the Bible. So you know, there's obviously there's the Old Testament, there's the New Testament, and, you know, the New Testament was written in Aramaic and Greek and the Old Testament was written in Hebrew. And then everything was later translated into Latin. Because that was the language of the land in the language of law. Even if you lived in England, or wherever, the only Bibles around for the longest time, were written in Latin. And the reason for that is that these, the Bible was not originally meant to be consumed by everyone. In fact, you could have been in big trouble, even killed for possessing a Bible if you are not the right person. And certainly most people couldn't read until pretty recently. And masses were conducted in Latin. So if you didn't read and you didn't understand Latin, you didn't even know what the heck was being said. You know, you just went to church to get the you know, because that was the thing that you had to do things I know you know, things are different now. You know, Catholic mass, it was only in the 20th century, when that changed, I think it was in the 1960s. So 2000 years, mass was almost 2000 years mass was conducted in in Latin, and you know, translating at various times translating the Bible into the vernacular, which is the, you know, the local tongue was illegal. But the Bible was not meant to be a read by unlearned people. Because be it was not meant to be read literally. And while there are events and people in the Bible that are that are historical, a lot of what in what is in there is allegorical and hidden. And that doesn't take a lot, actually, to see that, to find that out to learn that you don't have to look too deeply. I give you an example of the Lord's Prayer, being, you know, the bottom triad of the tree of life from Kabbalah is the last line for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever. The olam Amen forever. Amen. Right, kingdom power glory malkuth netzach, hod. And so there's, you know, literally reading the Bible and thinking the world is 6000 years old, which actually the Bible doesn't state. But looking at this as a historical document, was seen for most of the history of the Bible, as the lowest form of reading the Bible. Because it did not give you an understanding of a real understanding of God. And I can tell you that, you know, unless you're, unless you can read Biblical Hebrew and Biblical Greek. You're reading, you're reading a translation that may not really approach what is you know, more or less approaches what is said there but might not and I know of, I know if people who went to Divinity School and we're taking

Biblical Greek, and reading the New Testament, and many, many of them had a crisis of faith, when they found out that the original New Testament in Greek did not say what they thought it said for their entire life. And in Hebrew, one of the things I find really interesting is the, the creator in Genesis is Elohim. And Elohim, also, you know, in some places referred to as Elohim. Adonai, which I don't know is frequently translated as Lord. But Elohim is often translated as God, sometimes as Lord in English. But that word is complicated word Elohim. Eel, or E, L is a word for goddess, female, it's a feminine word. And heme is masculine and plural. So you have a word that is both feminine, masculine and plural. And that flies in the face of one a patriarchy, and a lot of monotheism. And some might translate that as in the beginning, the gods and goddesses are created to mankind in their own image. But that would be sacrilegious. For many in Christianity, that would be blasphemous, but I do know that there are some people who translate it that way. Anyway, let's get on. I've talked a little bit about mysticism already. And mysticism is about reuniting with the Godhead. Now nowadays, there's this new age movement towards ascension and the fifth dimension, and all of these things, and people are putting these different, different terms on things and, you know, it's okay, I don't want to take anything away from anyone else. But I just think a lot, you know, I see a lot of that is very egoic. Right where true reunion with the Godhead is about peeling away layers of the ego, not about it's not about achieving something. It's not about achievement, it's about dropping away, it's about dropping away the false now, in the, in the Kabbalah, you you know, if you ever get a chance, and you don't haven't seen this, look at the tree of life, there are true two paths on the tree of life. And the Tree of Life is a diagram, which many take as looking at different states of consciousness, between God, the Creator, at the very top of the tree, and the physical universe at the bottom, being malkuth, the kingdom. And there are two paths in the tree of life. One is a pathway down from God to the physical universe. And the other is a pathway up from the physical universe to God, the pathway up which is known as the path of the snake, and where have we seen a snake in a tree before Oh, in the book of Genesis and the story of Adam and Eve in the tree of knowledge, and eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge, get you kicked out of the kingdom malkuth. Interesting. And some would call that original sin. But it's called the path of the snake as the snake is winding up the tree. And this is about movement from identification with physical to identification with less and less physical, physical, you know, physical universe to higher and more subtle states. Until one fully identifies with essentially limitless light, which is what you know, essentially what God has pictured as in this model. And everything's a model it's not, you know, it's a map of reality. It isn't reality. The pathway down the tree, from God into the physical universe, is the path of magic. I'll talk about magic in a moment. But magic is about creation. It is about affecting, you know, going, taking from high and going down into more and more solid planes of existence until you get into physical reality. Let's talk about define magic for a second. I'm not let me be very clear that I'm not talking about stage magic here.

I love Penn and Teller. I love stage magic. When I was about eight years old, I won second place in a talent show, doing a magic act. I have not kept up my practice, but I love love, love stage magic, I love illusion. I love the psychology of it. I like tricking people, you know, in ways that make them happy, not in ways that, you know, make people less happy or cause them harm. But, you know, surprising people, delighting people. I like all of that. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about magic. And sometimes in the West, we spell that with a K to differentiate it from magic. And that was that K was added by an infamous magician named Aleister Crowley who called himself the beast 666. And, you know, the guy got a lot of bad press. And, you know, by all accounts, he was not a very nice person. It's kind of a jerk. However, a lot of his bad press was his own doing. He, he was a guy, he was really good at PR, really good at PR. And he knew that he could get a lot of attention. And he was, you know, he was an egomaniac, let's be clear about that he could get a lot of attention. By painting himself as the most wicked man on earth. He wasn't the most wicked man on earth. I mean, certainly Hitler would fall into that category, Stalin would fall into that category. But whatever he, you know, he, he promoted his image as a black magician, and a drug themed and all of these things. And he he was the those things, and the people were afraid of that back then. And that got him in newspapers, it got him press, it got him a following. And that's what he wanted. But he defined magic as causing change in accordance with will. And I think that is a little too general for me. Because if I pick up an apple and throw it across the room, I have caused change in accordance with will, but most of us would not consider that a magical act. But, you know, if I pray for somebody, and they are healed, or if I pray, and my consciousness is elevated, or if I, you know, practice a ritual, and I, you know, I have a change in consciousness. Those I would consider magical acts, and I do consider prayer, a magical act. And the Catholic Church in particular is full of ritual magic. I mean, Transubstantiation, they turn the, you know, the, the host into the body of Christ, literally, when you're eating the wafer, in, in Catholic mass, you are literally consuming the body of Christ, they do not consider it a spiritual change, they it, they consider that an actual physical change, whether you see it or not. That is a magical ritual. But lots of things, marriage, you know, all kinds of stuff. So, I would say using, you know, non physical means, and there may be a physical component, because there might be a physical ritual that is performed. But I'm not using direct physical means to cause a change in reality. And the change can happen on all of the different planes or some of the planes. So if I do something in change my consciousness, I believe that's a magical act, because that's a different plane. But most of us think of the physical and we think of stuff that looks like we see, we've seen in the movies, you know, casting fireballs out of your fingertips, or, you know, that sort of thing, but that's not really what it's about. So the magical path is, is it is the path of creation.

It's the path from divinity. So in a lot of Western magic, they work with angels and archangels. And there's all of these orders and there's these complex systems of who works for who and there are different worlds and you, you know, you reach up to work with these Archangels who set their angels to work do meaning these tasks are you bind demons and there's, there's all kinds of stuff. But there's all kinds of different types of magic, there's chaos magic, there's mental magic that works with pure consciousness. Ultimately, it's kind of all kind of all the same. You're using different methods to have your consciousness, create change, and to create change, you have to change your consciousness. So, as a teacher of shamanism, I would say that shamanism is both exoteric and esoteric and has both magical and mystical components. When I work with clients on behalf of clients, for example, I need to merge my consciousness frequently with helping spirits to do the work. And that is, that is mysticism. And doing that work to cause change, to cause healing to happen to cause psychological change for the client. That's magic. So there's a little bit of both going on there. Both magic and mysticism. This is just a little taste. You know, I'll talk more about these subjects. As as I am fond and love them all. But I will talk more about magic. I will talk more about mysticism and esoteric and exoteric stuff in future podcasts. I just wanted to give you some things to think about. And again, I hope you don't think if you follow a particular religion or spiritual path, please don't think that I am bashing on that or looking down upon it or saying bad things about it. I am not. I'm not at all, I'm just trying to point out some things to think about. And again, I think all paths can be equally valid. Except when they say this is the only path that I have a problem with. And I you know, don't mean to, again, that might fly in the face of what you believe. But if you need to believe that the way you do things is the only way to do them, you've got some work to do. You've got some work to do on yourself, you have given up your identity, you've given up a good portion of your identity, and you are uncomfortable with other people not giving up theirs. And that's not what, that's not what this reality is about. So at the very top of divinity, we can say God, we can say source, we can say the universe is limitless, light and soft, or is what's called in Hebrew, which stands for limitless potential limitless, unrealized potential. So this is a consciousness, an all pervasive consciousness that has every potentiality in it. And the only way that this limitless potentiality can sort of experience itself is by dividing itself into into many, many, many things and almost infinite amount of things. So this is where we get this infinite diversity from the source. I like to use the allegory of think of source as this infinite brilliant white beam of light that has no beginning and no end. But this light, wants to wants to look at itself. But that's really hard. That's about like trying to look in your eyeball. You can't, you're gonna look in the mirror and see the reflection of your eyeball, but you can't look at your own eyeballs. You know, you can take a picture and look at a picture of your eyeballs, but you can't look at your own eyeballs. So this differentiation is like a prism. And this white light, if you've ever you know, we've all seen prism. You put it in white light and it separates the light out into every color in the rainbow. Right and then and then some some we can't see.

So all of these different beams of colored light have the same source. If you were to turn off the source well, then everything ceases to exist. Right? No white light, no rainbow but we're you know, an individual beam of this rainbow and where we make an error is is where we think that we aren't connected to source and that we are all separate. That's ego. We are all separate individual things without connection. And the mystical path is about learning that everything is connected to everything. I understand that it's hard for the human mind to conceive of this, I can't really conceive of this. And I've been working on this for many, many, many years. I know at an abstract level, that everything is connected to everything. Everything you do has an effect on everything else, everything else has an effect on you. And everything has an effect on everything. It's the butterfly effect, but times times infinity. So mysticism, is about moving back towards source moving up your individual beam of light, again, we're all in different paths, we're all on our individual beams of light. And moving towards that prism, realizing that the prism is there, first of all, and moving towards that source light and then identify, oh, oh, I m, I m source, I'm just happen, my consciousness happens to be just differentiated. But I am no less source than anyone else, or anything else. It's all connected. All Connected to source. And that is the mystical path, the magical path is, can be enhanced by the mystical path, because it is reaching up to source and bringing down another color of light to make a change in the world as we see it. So with that, this has been, I don't know, maybe a lot of tangents, but I hope this has given you some things to think about some things to examine. You know, I would love it if you again, took what I said for checking, took it out and explored on your own. What makes sense for you do some reading, do some research, look into things. Do some practices, do some meditation, do some prayer. And by the way, interestingly, the you know, the Yoga is a path of you know, path of union to God, although nowadays in the West yoga is like a workout. But that's only one branch, one arm of yoga, there are eight different arms of yoga, eight different methods. And one is devotional path, and that's bhakti yoga. Right? And that is predominantly Western. Western religion is bhakti. It's devotional yoga. There is also some chanting, right? You know, you do your rosary. Well, that's mantra yoga. Okay, but we, you know, we missed many times in the West, we missed the other eight arms of yoga, we don't call it yoga. We call it devotional practice, or you know, whatever it is. So anyway, look into your own stuff, be a mystic, be a magician. You don't have to give up your spiritual system for that just look deeper. Read about other systems with an open mind without judgment. And understand that everybody again is on their own path. And with that thought, I'm going to leave you and I promise there won't be quite as long a break between this time and the next time and I will happily talk to you very soon.

Announcer 1:04:38

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to maineshamon.com That's MaineShaman.com.

EP46 Karma, The Butterfly Effect, and the Web of Wyrd

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:45

Hello, hello. How are you everybody? Hello my friends all over the world wherever you are. I will say good morning, even though I have no idea if you're listening to this. But per usual I'm recording this in the morning. And it is a it's a pretty nice day. It's chilly here we are well into spring. But in Maine, sometimes we still have frost overnight. And then we have beautiful days. And I am I'm really enjoying that. And I'm hoping to get some time outdoors. Some prolonged time outdoors very soon, you know, and do some hikes and things like that. Today, I want to talk to you about well, I'm titling this the butterfly effect and karma and the interconnectedness of all things. And per usual, I'll you know, I'll define what I mean. Not that, again, my definitions are perfect, or everybody's definitions are the only way of looking at things because I don't believe that is true. I just, you know, want to come from place of understanding. And so that's why I describe what I'm talking about. So today, when I when I'm talking about is first, let me go into the butterfly effect. If you don't know what that is, there was a movie, by that name. It's often used in movies and TV shows when they talk about things like time travel, right. So if I go back in time, and I change things, even some small amount, you know, I get back to my future. And huge changes have taken place, right? Because there's been this sort of snowball effect, this avalanche effect where one small change kicks off other small changes and that sort of thing. I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons, the cartoon, where I think, and I'm straining my memory here, because there's a long, long time ago, where Homer is fixing a toaster and does something to it, and it turns into a time machine and it keeps going back. And every time he goes back, he does something you know, like he sneezes, and dinosaurs catch a cold and die. And then when he comes back, the whole world is really, really changed. And this is an example of the butterfly effect that a small change. And this comes from, you know, a butterfly somewhere in the world flaps its wings and you know, pollen is kicked up, and then that that has some effect that has some effect. And that has a bigger effect and a bigger effect, until finally, it actually causes a hurricane somewhere. You know, so it's an interesting thought that our small actions can create larger and larger effects in the world. And they do want to talk about why that's important and how that all works, from my perspective on a spiritual level, as well. But especially in the spiritual level. Because physical things can be a little tough to to change. There's a lot of inertia in the physical world, right, which is why people who practice law of attraction don't win the lottery that much there's too much chaos. I guess that's actually momentum. There's also inertia, right? So I can't necessarily move the earth without a great deal of effort. But that doesn't mean I don't have some effect and you know, the gist of the butterfly effect is that you matter in everything you everything you do matters. The way you do everything matters. The thoughts that You have when you do anything matter. So let's talk a little bit about karma. And how that plays in with the butterfly effect. And then I'm gonna talk about how everything is connected to everything, and how this all works together in, in one model of, you know, in one model anyway. So there's this idea about karma and Karma is a word with a lot of baggage, right?

Because there are, you know, patriarchal systems that and, and hierarchical systems that, you know, like the caste system in India that Oh, you were you were born to a lower caste, that's your karma, you did something bad in a previous life, and yada yada, yada, or you were born a woman. So you deserve to be treated less than XYZ. I don't believe that's how karma works, per se, and, you know, karma. One of the ways of looking at it that I don't particularly like, is this sort of storehouse of our deeds that is weighed good or bad. And so, you know, when we look at the, the Egyptian afterlife, right, so when you died in Egypt, your heart was weighed against a feather. And if you were, you know, if you were a bad person, I don't know how you measure that, if you were a bad person, or you did more bad deeds than good, you didn't get to go to the good place, right. And so again, this is a, you know, a concept that sort of carried through into Judeo Christian belief, at least, particularly in Christian belief. And there are some Christian sects that believe, you know, you, you do enough good deeds, you earn your way into heaven, and you don't do enough. And there's St. Peter at the pearly gates, and he looks through the book of your life, and yada, yada. And then there are others where you don't get into heaven, unless you do you know, you are baptized, and you do X, Y, and Z. But that's kind of a it's kind of a view of karma, right? Where you're collecting, you're collecting things in your life. And, you know, we, I like to look at systems like that systems of sin and reward and punishment basically, is what we're talking about, as kind of carrot and stick methods of getting people to behave in a certain way. And sometimes that's okay, right, like sometimes, you know, don't steal, don't kill, those are fine. Those are fine rules. You been there. You know, I know people who are absolutely materialist, materialist, atheists, believing nothing beyond this physical world exists. And they don't kill or murder anybody. They have a strong ethical code that doesn't necessarily come from religion. And there's this idea that all of our morality comes from spiritual and religious belief. And I just don't, I don't think that's true. Or the human race would have died out, because humans, you know, the religions that anybody practices are no more than a few 1000 years old. Unless we're talking about shamanism, which is spiritual practice, but not really religion. You know, at the most the religion you practice is a few 1000 years old, which seems like a long time. But that's a blink of an eye in the whole, you know, in all of human existence. And humans have always had to cooperate and live together to survive. We aren't particularly fast. We don't have sharp claws, sharp teeth. We only survive through cooperative living, cooperative hunting, you know, that sort of thing. We don't climb trees very well. We have very few characteristics that that help us survive other than the two biggest things that we have are a the use of tools and be cooperative, hunting and gathering. And if we needed religion, if we needed dogma from religion, I'm not saying we don't need religious thought, because that seems, spiritual thought seems to have evolved about the same exact time as everything else in humanity. There is you know, there's reason for spiritual thought, spiritual symbolic thought there's reason there are reasons for evolutionary reasons. Good Reasons why that came about. But if you need dogs, if we needed dogmatic code to not to not murder each other, steal from one from one another, etc, then we would not have survived as a species, there's no way we could not have gotten along cooperatively. Right? Because human beings can see smart and stupid boy, it's stupid to kill other people. Because A, they're going to kill me back. When I try and be I'm going to run out of tribes people pretty darn quickly.

This is not to say that people haven't killed each other throughout time, that certainly seems to be the case. But just as a general overarching rule, people seem to, to get that people seem to understand that to a degree. And cultures that enjoy these dogmatic beliefs, Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, certainly did a whole lot of killing and stealing throughout history. We have genocides, we have all kinds of stuff. So we'll get away from that. So the idea of the karmic storehouse, you know, doesn't kind of you know, where you are judged by somebody at the end of your life. And, you know, I don't love that concept. If you do, if you subscribe to that, it's totally fine. It's not my favorite, favorite idea. My idea is that karma is almost most of the time. Instantaneous, meaning Sokar karma is basically cause and effect, when I do something, it has an effect, everything I do, right Butterfly Effect, here's where we tie these together, everything I do has some effect. If I switch on a light in my house, I use a certain amount of electricity that has to be generated somewhere, that also increases my electricity bill, it has, you know, that small act of switching on a light has a huge effect beyond just switching on the light, right? Because, you know, the company that generates my electricity makes a little bit more money, I have a little bit less money. There's illumination in my house, I'm, you know, I see stuff, I act differently. We, everything we do, has results, even when we do nothing that has results, right. Inaction also, also has has an effect. So, you know, karma is basically the stuff that you do has an effect. And I think it's fairly immediate, it can be hard for us to see this if we don't take perspective, right. And one example of that is, there are people that we see, who get away with doing, let's say, you know, to reduce this down to black and white terms, to get away with bad things who do bad things are people out there who kill and steal and, you know, do all kinds of horrible things to other people. And sometimes it looks like they get away with that. And, you know, when we view that from a very surface level, that seems to be the case. But I don't think that's the case. I think people who live a life like that, who kill and Rob Robin still are basically experiencing suffering on a significant level at all times. So if I'm, if I'm, you know, if I'm a criminal, right, if I make money, doing crimes, robbing banks, or whatever, I would I live my life looking over my shoulder, always worried that somebody's going to catch up to me, somebody's going to turn me in somebody, you know, something's going to happen. That effect is almost that effect is immediate. Right? I am not living a fantastic life. The other part of that is I don't know what I'm missing out on. Were I to contribute in a positive way to society around me. So if instead of robbing and stealing, I chose to do something different that had a more positive effect on the world around me. The benefit from that would have been larger, and just not just in general. But to me as well, I would be living a happier, more fulfilled better life. The issue is that, that is not always clear to people, people don't, people don't see that if they did, they wouldn't do some of these things that they some of the things that they do. But they would be living a much different life. And that is, that is one way that karma works.

I will, I'll give you an example, from my own life. So, some time ago, I was in a relationship with somebody, a spiritual person, who is, you know, a healer and a teacher. Like me, and, you know, this relationship ended, ended badly. This, you know, I, I honestly think the person has undiagnosed and untreated, mental illness, and I feel compassion for this person. But this person did some horrible things. To me, like, you know, taking my things, ruining my ruining my things, spreading untrue rumors about me. And, you know, it got back some of the things that happened got back to me through channels in the community, this person saying these things about you, these, this person's doing things about you. And I had a long think about that. I had to think, what, what, if anything, am I going to do about this? Because while I have compassion for this person, they are trying to harm me. And then, you know, when I examined the actual effect, I thought, you know, things are replaceable. And, you know, this person had, you know, start started some rumors that got back to me about things that were untrue. Well, you know, people, people who know me, people know my heart and know that these things are untrue. And that's why they got back to me. And this person has wound up cutting off people from her life, who would have been sources of strength for her. So she, you know, people, first of all, aren't believing these things. And second of all, you know, she is not just doing this to me, she's doing this to other people. And it's, you know, it's really, it's really sad, because she's lost contact with and the support of many, many people in her life, who could be sources of support for her and she is suffering, and she's caused her own suffering. And it's unfortunate that maybe she doesn't see that, and maybe he doesn't understand that. But for my part, I'm fine. You know, when I really looked at it, at first, it was upsetting. You know, like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this person, you know, is out there still doing, you know, the relationships been over for a very long time, and this person is still out there cause trying to cause trouble in my life. But it's fine. I'll deal with it. People will know me by the good work that I do. I'm going to put positivity out there. And that will be my butterfly effect, right, that will that will affect my karma. When I do good things. I live in a good environment. I have good relationships with people. I am happier. So you know, that's just a little example from my own life. This person has created life circumstances where she is incredibly and she's a very unhappy person. And I feel compassion for that. There's nothing I can do about it, of course. But other than wish her well and see her surrounded, you know, I visualize her surrounded by love and I hope that someday, someday she gets whatever it is she needs and lives a happier life than she's living but she has created a life for herself that seems very unhappy. And that is karma. That's what happens. When you do things like this and it happens. It is immediate or very close to immediate. These effects did not take a lifetime to show up. We do carry these things with us from lifetime to lifetime if you don't heal them if you don't take care of them. It does have an effect. Fact across lifetimes. And so this is where the maybe the storehouse idea comes from the storehouse of karma. And, you know, what happens is that I carry this energetic wounding or something else around and, you know, the, you know, this energetic pattern travels with me from lifetime to lifetime. And it's my job to fix that.

It's my job to do my own work and fix that stuff. So I don't have to go through it again, in the next lifetime. And I can, you know, next in my next life, if I choose to come back, you know, I don't have to learn the same lessons. And I can just focus on making the world a better place. And I will, I'm going to talk about that in a moment as well and what you can do right now. So I've talked about the butterfly effect, I've talked about karma, and how it is cause and effect and almost instantaneous. And now I want to talk about this on a spiritual level, and give you a model for understanding this a little bit better. from a, from a spiritual perspective, everything is connected to everything, and every one. So I am connected to the rocks and the trees and the birds and the bees and the rivers. And every individual that I've ever come into contact with, and every individual they've ever come into contact with, forever and ever and on into an infinity. And the way that I like to visualize this that makes sense is if you think about a net, so I would, you know, my individual self, in this lifetime, am a node in this net, or web, right, which is where some strings crossed together, there's a very complex net, because there's basically an infinite number of strings stretching out in all directions into infinity. And the people really close to me represent nodes that are very close to me on the same net. So if you just imagine maybe a to d nets where two lines cross, that's where I sit. And, you know, the people that are the people that are close to me, the closest to me, are at crossed lines that are adjacent to my node, the place where the those lines cross, and the people that they're connected to are, you know, a layer away and layer away and layer away. And if you understand six degrees of separation, you understand that we're actually much closer than that we are usually about three or four hops away from contacting any person in the world. You know, when I look at my social media accounts, you know, they're not that I'm in direct contact with everybody, I'm connected within social media, but there's 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people on my social media accounts. And I can put out a good message and cause a cause a huge effect. So imagine what happens if I cause a disturbance in that net, right. So if I grab the node that I'm on, and I pick it, and I pick it up, and I pick it straight up, what happens is that it lifts the other nodes in the net, lifts, the other parts of the net, and the net, the parts of the net that are closer to me get lifted higher with me, right and the ones that are farther away, not quite as much. So, when I create a ripple, like dropping a stone in the pond, you know, it creates a big ripple that gets smaller and smaller and smaller as it goes out. But essentially, it goes to infinity or to the edge of the edge of the pond, which will represent infinity for our for our sake. So, the same is true, the same is true for you and I the way that we are in that in connection with everything in the universe. And every person in the universe when we when we act we are causing ripples when we when we don't act we are causing an effect, our thoughts cause effect and those ripple along this network. Now this is not my model. This is a model that is used in many belief systems, many spiritual systems this model of a net or weaving together or a web. So from Buddhist belief, we have Indras web, which is this, you know, web of jewels, interconnecting everything.

In Norse belief, we have the web of weird, right? Which is fate weird in this case not meaning weird, like strange, but weird meaning like fate. And there, there's usually weavers, the fates, weaving things together, weaving is a very common sort of model metaphor for what's happening here. Because the, you know, our ancient ancestors viewed this as a net, a tapestry, a cloth of interconnected strands. Right. So, same thing with same thing with the fates in in Greek, Greece and Rome, and the Norns, in Norse mythology, and you know, so there's, there's, there's this web, or there's this tapestry that we're all connected to, and this plays highly into the the butterfly effect and the karma that I've already talked about. So when there's a concept in shamanism, there are a couple of concepts in shamanism that play in here. One is this idea that when I heal myself, I heal the world. And I firmly, firmly believe this to be true. And I have witnessed this myself, in doing my own healing work, it has a powerful effect on the people around me, particularly an observable effect on the people who are closest to me. And we know this from modern research that when parents have children, one of the best things they can do for their children's mental health, is to take care of their own mental health. Right, this is a prime example. It almost this is so true, it almost seems like common sense, right? If I don't take care of my mental health, I can't take care of my kids, I can't be there for them emotionally, I don't model good behavior for them. And that affects them. And then that affects, you know, their mental health and how they behave and which affects the people around them. And we can very easily see how this, this is the case. On a very ordinary level, not not even talking about spirit, spirituality here. Just talking about taking care of myself, when I take care of myself, I'm better able to take care of my children, I'm better able to take care of my relationships with people I care about. I can tell you having gone through some very harsh periods with my mental health, which is what brought me into shamanism. You know, personal relationships, were not so great during those times. And, you know, as I alluded to, in the story, before, you know, this person, this person who I was in relationship with, and not taking care of her stuff has so many ruptured disrupted interpersonal relationships, and, you know, has become, unfortunately, like, a main topic of conversation with people that she has been in ruptured relationships with. So, her rumor spreading has caused rumors about her to spread. This is karma. This is how it works. So, on a spiritual level, there's this idea that what you put out comes back to you like a boomerang effect. And in Wicca, they have the three fold rule, like, whatever energy comes back, you put out comes back to you three times over. And this is again, this is one of these dogmatic rules to try to keep people from doing harm to each other. Right, if I send out curse energy than curse, energy is going to come back to me three times over. That's a pretty modern invention, and I don't necessarily agree with it. People have been cursing forever and I'm not going to argue that cursing is good or bad. I don't I don't do it. But you know, I know there are there are systems like hoodoo for example, which is

I want to describe it and this is very Redux. Just want to describe it as African American folk magic. Because it come, it combines elements from, you know, sort of during slavery and post slavery and that sort of thing. So here was a group of people, you know, African Americans who, you know, we're enslaved, and even after slavery oppressed, and we're the subject of violence, horrific, horrific violence, and, you know, laws meant to keep them down and all of these things, who had no recourses frequently to protect themselves, other than using folk magic, in ways that we might think of as cursing, right. So I'm, you know, in this case, we could think of it as defensive, right. So I come from a martial arts background, I studied martial arts since I was about six years old. And I'm 50. Now. So that's a very long time, decades of study and teaching and all kinds of stuff. And I abhor violence, I really, really dislike violence. That would always, always be an absolute last resort. For me. I don't settle issues with violence I have had. I've had people try to mug me when I lived in the city I've had, you know, people on the subway threatened to kill me and want to fight me and all kinds of stuff. And I have never had to resort to violence to defend myself in these cases. And I'm happy about that. It's the thing that makes me proud. I was able to keep my cool because I and take care of the situation in a non violent way. Because I had the training and the ability to backup what I was doing if I had to. This is not to say you should not defend yourself. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I have had many situations where self defense, physical self defense would have been justified. But I always use it as an absolute last resort. And so no, getting into the ethics of using, you know, being we'll call them painful spiritual techniques, painful magic, cursing and Hexing and jinxing. All of these things. You know, it's a really weird, ethical area, it can be right if I'm just causing harm to cause harm. And that's not good. And you definitely are putting harmful energy out there that you have to be, you have to be really careful that it doesn't doesn't affect you on a spiritual level. If you're a kind of person, you're just hurling curses at people because you're angry at them, that energy is going to stick around you and cause some Cosmo effects. But, you know, if I were if I were African American, and growing up, maybe in the south, you know, post slavery during Jim Crow era, when there were, you know, lynchings and you know, the kk k, I mean, they're still around, but, you know, they were doing parades and threatening and terrorizing and all kinds of stuff. And not to say that doesn't still go on. But I'm just talking historically here. What would I do to protect my family? What would I do to protect my life and the people I care about? Would I use whatever defensive techniques and things I had at my disposal? Even if that involved attacking? Most likely? Most likely I would and is that bad? Is that ethically bad? If somebody is threatening the life of my family, and I do something spiritually to prevent that, and that causes some harm to that person? I don't know it's a gray area, we could probably bring somebody on and have a big huge debate about this. But there is this concept that doing

and I get it like the spiritual is seen as sacred by many people and it is but um, you know, My, my body and my life are also sacred. And so somebody wanting to cause harm, you know, I can punch them in the nose, or I can, you know, use defensive spiritual techniques. You know, and I, you know, I think protecting yourself shows, shows a type of love a type of self love, I'm worthy of protecting that sort of thing. I'm not taking anything away from anybody who decides to do things another route, I'm just not going to judge people for whom this is what they resorted to because they had to. So I don't know about that three fold rule. It's not been my experience. I also know people who do basically magic professionally, and you know, they might do put something on an altar for something. And you know, we'll talk about cursing and does that come back on you three times over? And is it okay to curse people? And, you know, we could get into a whole thing about that spiritually. But, you know, one story that came from somebody who does this professionally for other people, is there was a, there's a woman who is being stalked, physically stalked, and threatened. Her physical well being was being threatened, her mental health was being affected, because she was living under constant fear. And, again, if I were African American living in the South, during Jim Crow era, I'm sure and there are people, you know, there are people today who fear for their life because of the color of their skin on a daily basis. I recognize my privilege in not having to live that way. You know, I don't I'm, you know, I'm a, I'm a white man living in the Northeast, and I don't ever have to think when I leave my door that somebody is going to attack me because of the color of my skin. So I know that I can't understand exactly what that's like. And but when I think about it, I can understand that gosh, what, what a stressful existence that must be. So anyway, this, this woman was being stalked, and she contacted this person, this person who, you know, does spiritual work for other people. And this person said, Alright, I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to do I'm going to look into this, did some divination work, and then said, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to do some defensive magic to what we might consider a curse, I guess. But preventative, right, prevent this person from stalking. And what happened, as the story goes, is that this stalker, got a ladder, put it up to the second floor of the place where this person was living, and was climbing it going to break into their house while they were asleep. And do who knows what. And they fell off the ladder and broke their leg. And also wound up in trouble with the law because they were attempting to break into this person's house and had been stalking and probably there was a protective order in place. So is that bad? Is that cursing bad? I mean, some people might judge and say, Oh, no, we can't do that magically. But if somebody were about to break into your house and kill you, and you push the ladder over with your hands and they broke their leg and got arrested, same effect, not using spiritual methodology, is that difference? I would argue, no, it isn't. It's not it's not effectively different because the effect it's just a different mechanism. Okay, if I you know, if I'm cooking some vegetables, and I roast them in the oven, or a roast them on my grill are the vegetables are still roasted, they might taste a little different. But I've used different methods but it's the same. They're roasted, right.

So karmically inter, you know, this interconnection exists, and it does allow us to do do wonderful things, do horrible things. You know, it is it is our thinking. That makes things bad or good in general, we, we can have agreement, we can have consensus about what kinds of things are bad. We can look at the effects of doing things like murder and genocide, and that sort of thing and say, these are some of the worst things we can do and what a horrific effect that has had on, you know, on the world and our own lives, and they you look at, you know, you look at these dictators, who are doing horrible things on a very large scale. You know, you look at Vladimir Putin, for example, who is, as I, as I am, you know, doing recording this, there is war in Ukraine. Russia has an in vated Ukraine, and their propaganda is saying, Oh, we're, you know, we're destroying the Nazis in Ukraine, which doesn't make any sense, because, first of all, that's not true. And second of all, the leader of Ukraine is Jewish. And third of all, they're, you know, they're a sovereign nation. They're not, they didn't attack Russia, Russia attack them. You know, I don't want to get into a whole political thing, but that's going on. Right. And we think about, oh, you know, Vladimir Putin, he's one of the wealthiest man in the world. He's, you know, got all these billions of dollars. He's got all these oligarchs sucking up to him. He's got a whole country at his disposal, he rules with an iron fist. He's controlling them all of the media through propaganda. There was some thing this morning that said that 83% of Russians polled agree with the war in Ukraine. The reason that is is because they're everything they think about it, everything they they find out about it has been controlled by Putin. And they're throwing, you know, they're throwing journalists in jail who use the word war. So you can't even say war in Russia. So regardless, though, we think about this, he's doing these horrible things, and he's killing all these people. And yeah, it's horrible, it is horrible. And, but these dictators, all of them, everyone throughout history, they, they live in constant fear, and they have to control everything around them, and then become more and more isolated, which is already happening with Russia, Russia, all these sanctions are cutting them off from the world stage from, from access to their money from, you know, their economy is going to take it is already taking a huge hit, but it's going to take an even bigger hit. And, you know, Putin has got to be afraid of the people around him potentially staging a coup. Right? It's gonna live live like that. So these people who do these horrible things live in horrible fear, and it never, it never winds up well for them. You look at Saddam Hussein, you look at Hitler, Mussolini. It's not going to end well, for Putin, even if he lives along life, he's gonna he is he is suffering. Imagine if he put all of the time effort and resources into building up building Russia up not as an adversary of the entire planet. But to build the economy instead of having these oligarchs with $600 million yachts with to hella pads and that sort of thing? What if he built his economy? What if he built relations with foreign nations? What kind of a world could we live in? What kind of a world could he live in? And the people around him who are losing all their stuff right now? And I realize it'll take a while before these oligarchs really feel everything and Putin's family feels everything and all kinds of stuff. But you know, they sanctioned his daughter's yesterday.

They're sanctioning the people around him confiscating their money and, and all of these things. And this is not to compare to the suffering the husband caused in Ukraine, but I'm just going to say that in no way shape or form is Vladimir Putin enjoying any of this. He has to live his life in constant fear he has to jail Al has political opposition. That's never a good sign. You know, he's jailed him, he's also poison them, have them killed all kinds of stuff. And the entire world knows what kind of a horrible human being he is. So, there is an effect, there is karma, it is already affecting him, it is immediate. The suffering that he is causing is going to be reflected back upon him. It's just really, really hard for us to see that we don't see inside his mind, we don't see his emotions, we don't see what's going on with his health. There are rumors that he's sick, which may be true. We don't see how paranoid and isolated he is, which, you know, I've certainly seen, I've seen pictures of him sitting with his advisors. And there's this like, 30 foot long table, and he's sitting at one end, and everybody else is huddled at the other end. You know, what's that tell you about how he lives? It's crazy, right? It must be, it must be horrible, must be a horrible life, even with as much wealth and power as he controls. He can't just, you know, walk out in public or go to a restaurant or, you know, whatever. And he's got to worry about people close to him, poisoning him or staging a coup or, you know, whatever, or him eventually winding up in prison. Because that could happen as well. So, from a spiritual perspective, this net model works really well as a metaphor. Obviously, it's, you know, no metaphor is perfect. There's no such thing as a perfect metaphor. There is, you know, there's always missing pieces and whatever, but but it works for me anyway, to sort of visualize this interconnectedness. Another way I like to view this is, and this can be hard to get your mind around as well, is that we all have this Divine Spark, at our core, we all have this connection to divinity, and it doesn't matter, you know, from the holiest of saints to the worst serial killers in history. That is, you know, that is persona level stuff, that's ego level stuff, that is a very gross level looking at things, but beyond that, below that, beneath that, and, and through that is the same Divine Spark, we all have this divine spark. And the way I the model that I use to think about and visualize this is, you know, when I think of source, you might say God, or the universe or divinity, or whatever, I visualize it as this infinite, bright white beam of light that has no beginning and no end and is infinitely bright. And then, you know, to, to experience things to experience because it is this light is conscious, it is all consciousness, it contains all consciousness is the source of all consciousness. And consciousness is contains everything contains everything there is. So this white light, consciousness decides I want to observe myself from Infinite viewpoints. And so it differentiates. And so there's, you know, if you can imagine a white light hitting a prism, right, and, you know, if you shine a light, a white light on a prism, it breaks it off into this whole spectrum of light. So breaks it into these, you know, infinite amount of beams coming from this white light. And all of these beams look like they're different colors. Right? There's this there's an infinite variety. Well, that's us and everything that exists are these different beams from this infinite spectrum. But we all come from the same source. If you take away the, the prism that differentiates all of us, we are all the same white light.

If you were to turn off the white light, we would everything ceases to exist. You turn off source, everything ceases to exist. That includes physical reality. So in in my view in in, you know, the, the spiritual level, there's no difference We talk about the sort of the spiritual planes and the spiritual overlay as being separate from physical reality. And that's one way to understand them. But you can't pull spiritual reality away from the material plane and the material have the material plane still exist, it wouldn't, because everything co exists simultaneously, at all times in all places in all of space and every spiritual plane and an infinite amount of universes. And I realized that's a tough thing to get your brain around. Watching sci fi watching Science Fiction really helps with this watching stuff about time travel, and alternate universes, kind of helps you get your brain around some of this some small aspect of this. But one of the nice things about shamanism is that it recognizes the material world as being as important as the spiritual world. Now, the Gnostic view is that the material world doesn't mean steak, that the spiritual world is the real reality that the, the, you know, physical universe was created, either by a the Demiurge, which is sort of the Antichrist, or as some kind of mistake. You know, not to take any, you know, not to argue anybody's beliefs, but that it's not my experience of things. You know, I think this, I think the physical world is wonderful, as long as you have some perspective that it's not all there is. Because it is, but everything is connected, the physical world and the spiritual world are inseparable. This is like, for we human beings, mind, body, and spirit are not really separate things, right? Where does my mind, stop and my body begin and vice versa? Right, we have gut feelings. We have heart ache, when our you know, we have thoughts that in our prefrontal cortex, and we have consciousness and we have, so we can't separate these things really. And your mind affects your body, your body affects your mind, your spirit affects both your body and mind and vice versa. All of these things, interpenetrate, interconnect, everything's connected to everything. The closer you are to something, the closer your connection, you can't be closer to your body, mind and spirit than you are. So everything that you do spiritually affects you physically, affects you mentally, and vice versa. Right, which is why in, in many traditions, physical purification is an important part of spiritual practice. I think about the Think about Judaism, for example, right? Jewish religion, where purity is important. And there are, you know, ritual baths, and there are dietary restrictions and specific items of quote, depending on you know, what branch of Judaism you come from, if you're orthodox or Hasidic, or, you know, what have you and I'm not an expert, so I don't want to speak out of turn, but there are specific items of clothing that you were in certain circumstances and, you know, you do prayers in certain ways and that sort of thing. So, the physical aspects of spiritual practice are important. Same thing with with shamanism, because those things are connected. Shinto is another one, right? So Shinto is very animist and purification through water is really important. Right, so ritual bathing and washing. There's a ritual where you rinse your mouth out and wash your hands before entering

a temple. I believe again, I'm not an expert, but so these are spiritual systems that recognize this interconnection and how important it is and how nothing is nothing can be really separated out. Without it ceasing to exist as we know it. So if we We delete our divinity, we just cease to exist. It's not possible to delete your divinity, because it is borderless and deathless. But if it were possible and you were to take away your Divine Spark, somehow your physical body and your spirit would cease to exist. However, your physical your physical body can, can certainly die. That is a part of physical reality, that is change and transformation happens constantly. And on your soul, actually changes, evolves, can be wounded can be healed all of those things, but your spirit, which is that divine spark, that is the part of you, that is eternal, and timeless and interconnected with everything. It is imperturbable, it is unwinnable on Harmel. It's pure, and the more you know, a big part of many spiritual traditions is identifying with that divine aspect of that divine spark. More and more and more and more, until you reach a state where you, the rest of you is sort of undifferentiated from divinity. And, you know, all kinds of things happen. At that point. I haven't gotten there yet. So I'm not quite sure. But you know, one step one step along that path is what we refer to as enlightenment. And many people think of enlightenment as the final step, but I don't know, you know, enlightened, human beings still have physical death. Frequently, unless they unless they just physically disappear. And we have all these stories about being, you know, ascending, ascending to the heavens. Right? We have that from Jesus to Allah. To other spiritual, Allah, I'm sorry, Mohammed, pardon me, I'm sorry, I misspoke. Mohammed, ascending to the heavens, we have all these stories about the, you know, physical ascension. And so I think my theory is that this is something that happens when we completely identify with our divine nature, so much so that the physical body like the physical body just sort of dissolves back into source. And we just kind of realize our Godhood, for lack of a better term. So anyway, I am going to I've been talking for about an hour, I'm going to wrap this up. I realize it's been a really long time since I've done one of these, I've been incredibly busy. And I am about to, you know, I've put out a bunch of really interesting things interesting to me recently, and I'm about to launch something really big as well that I've been working on this taken a lot of my time. So I you know, might do this a little more infrequently for a little while, until I can, you know, get thing the things that are about to be launched are launched and you'll hear about them here. So stay tuned, make sure you subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast subscription service. I hope you stay happy and healthy and I will talk to you really soon.

Announcer 59:23

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to MaineShaman.com That's maineshaman.com

Ep44 Talk to the Animals with Animal Communicator and author Jody Crotty

Announcer 0:27

Hello and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now his John

John Moore 0:44

Hey, everybody, I've got a very special guest, Sam very excited to be talking to this person to introduce her to you. And I want to start by saying that when I was a kid, one of my very favorite movies of all time, and and hopefully some of you recognize this, because it's pretty old at 1967. Dr. Dr. Doolittle. Right. And he had this ability to and I know they remade it with Eddie Murphy later on the original with with Rex Harrison. And he could go around and talk to animals. And when I was a kid, that blew my mind. I was like, I want to do that. I want to know what my dog is saying. I know what my cat is saying. I want to talk to the bears. I want to talk to everybody.

Luckily, I got to study shamanism and do a little bit of that. But my guest today is actually an animal communicator. She is a soul level animal communicator. She's going to correct me if I screw any of this up. My guest name is Jody karate. Sounds like karate, but it's spelled CR OTTY. You can find her at Jody karate.com And I'll I'll spell that out at the end of the podcast and everything. I want to read a little bit about her because I don't want to give anything wrong and you know how I am? So, are you grieving the loss of your pet and want to know how they are on the other side? Do you feel you're over overly affectionate pet chose you? I can answer yes to that already. Jodie helps you discover and understand the meaningful messages from the animals in your life. A session with God offers you the opportunity to receive loving wisdom from your animals perspective. To hear their side of the story. Jodi's intuitive nature with her cheerful demeanor provides gentle support when you're grieving the transition of your cherished companion, as well as offers assistance to you to resolve animal behavior issues. She connects with animals alive and in spirit, fostering the infinite love animals have in your life. And welcome, Jody, so happy to have you here.

Jody Crotty 3:00

Thank you, John. I'm so proud of you. You got everything correct.

John Moore 3:04

It was just kind of Jody and I have known each other for a few years. So I'm so happy that she came on and we're going to talk in a little bit. She's got a brand new book out. And I'm excited about it because it's a kid's book and I love kids books. And I think I think I have a kids book in me. But maybe I'll maybe I'll squeeze some tips out of God before the before the conversation is over. But I want to talk about I want to talk about animal communication because this is something even though I'm a shamanic practitioner, it's not some and I absolutely love animals and you can't be a shamanic practitioner or not love animals, but it's not something I specialize in. It's not something I have a gift for or have really trained in or anything like that. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and just sort of what so if I came to you, okay, my my girlfriend just got to my girlfriend's got a 17 year old show Allah and the 10 month old kitten. What a combo. Right? And so the show I was like, I can I can tell he's like, this little jerk, right? The cats running all over the house. And the cats just you know, hyper he's a Giza 10 month old kitten. Just crazy all over the place. So let's say I'm like, I got to figure out this, this, this behavior? What's going on with these animals? What does that look like? What does that consist of? With you?

Jody Crotty 4:37

Wow, John, that's amazing for sharing that. So you can do it, you really can. Because the animals are so willing to communicate with all of us at all different levels. So you don't necessarily have to be an animal communicator or a soul level animal communicator, as long as you're open to receive the messages that the animals are communicating to.

You can communicate with animals. I think, for me, it first started again, when I was little. And because I think when we're all little, we don't have that conscious thought, yeah. Oh, my gosh, this is going to happening, we are connected to nature, we are so much more sensitive, because our brain and our experiences haven't filled that cup yet, if that makes sense. So as we mature and get older, we dismiss that we kind of get rid of that intuitiveness. And even with shamanism, I believe too, that, you know, getting back to that, and getting back to the root of who you are, why you are here on this earth. And the cool thing is the animals are supporting you through having them as pets, or, you know, like you said, your girlfriend's, you know, cat, new cat and all of these things. So it's all about the connectedness that animals can bring to our lives, if that makes sense. Absolutely. And I do. It's interesting. And one of the things that I love about the fact that you did a children's book, I do think kids are so open. And I remember I've got I've got twin daughters, they just turned 15 and started to drive, I need anti anxiety meds.

John Moore 7:30

But when they were little, I can remember coming home from work, they were about three, and walking in the door, and just really frustrated with something that happened at work. And it opened the door and I was taking a step through, and I can hear my daughter yelling from the other room. I feel frustrated all of a sudden, and I don't know why. And I was like, holy smokes this kid from across the house without even looking at me without even being able to see me or hear me come in or whatever, is completely open to whatever, whatever that experience is. And they were, you know, I watched them be really open to the spirit world. But yeah, we we shut that stuff down. Because we're told, you know, don't believe in fairy tales and don't, you know, reality is only the things that you can touch and, you know, material realism and all of that sort of thing. So

Jody Crotty 8:23

not on Google. It's not true. Right? Find it on Google. And I think that just reiterates you know, as as we evolved as humans and become adults, you know, we make life choices. We all have freewill. Same thing with animals, the souls of the animals, they have free will to so being able to feel their support through the lessons that they're helping us learn, because they come from a place of unconditional love of infinite love. I mean, John, do you really think that your dog is going to be mad at you or frustrated with you? If you go to the grocery store with your pants on backwards? No. Your dog is going to look at you and say, Wow, look at John go look at how proud he is to wear those pants backwards. I'm so support. That's how it's all about the support all about the protection that they offer us. They allow us to feel love. As much as we love them. They love us the same in return, if not more, so then that way we can feel that love about ourselves. And that helps us grow and evolve and you think about all of your childhood pets that you have met Pat. You know, I think if you you ask anybody who had a special dog or a special cat, the first thing that they will say oh my gosh, I remember that cat fluffy that cat fluffy got me. And so that's that connection, and that connection with fluffy or your childhood pet never goes away, that allowed you to evolve into the person that you are. So looking at animals, as our teachers is a massive thing and saying, Wow, I'm so grateful that fluffy came into my life, because at that time, my parents were getting divorced. You know, I had to move, I'm really glad that I had a friend and fluffy. And so using that analogy, just kind of hits home, that point of how important animals are to our souls evolvement as much as that we are for them. That makes sense.

John Moore 10:37

Yeah. And something something you said that I absolutely love is the is the phrase animal teachers or tea animals as teachers, because so often we, you know, in our culture, we see animals as like inferior, right? We see them as these less than beings, humans are at the top and this and that, but we have so much to learn. And you're exactly right. If I, you know, and I may have gotten to the store, have my pants on backwards, and the dog doesn't care, because that's not important. And it's not, it shouldn't be important. And they can teach us a lot about what, what is important. And I had a, I had a profound experience, a couple of profound experiences. But I had a profound experience one time working with another shamanic practitioner who was working with some horses. And I did,

I did a land clearing on the place where the horses were. And

as I was doing, you know, this practitioner was working with this one horse, so it had some behavior problems. And I was out in the field doing some work on the land, and it had been snow, snowing, and these two old horses came out. They were like checking me out, they're looking at me, then all of a sudden, they start jumping around and rolling in the snow, because they could tell what was going on with the land and the owner, the horses owner came to me she's like, I've never seen them behave like that before. I've never seen that before. They are so in tuned. And I think I mean, all animals, I agree. But we, we have this sort of special evolved relationship with horses and dogs. That there's there's this and I know people who are equine therapists, for example, who who do a lot of work with horses, as well. And it's brilliant. It's just it's absolutely brilliant. So yeah, I really resonate with with, with what you're with what you're saying? I do.

Jody Crotty 12:41

So the one of the quotes from the My children's book, do you talk with animals? Is animals see what we forgot?

Animals here, what we cannot? Animals, no more than we thought. And animals feel when we connect the dots. And so I feel from your experience that John with the horses, that's the perfect mantra or statement.

And they know more about us. They're like, you rock those backward pants, John.

So yeah, they definitely know and they see and I, it's all energy energy can just, it can't be created nor destroyed, it just kind of changes a little bit and shifts and evolves. And the animals are right there guiding us. So that's, that makes me have such gratitude for all of the animals, even those annoying little squirrels, or the raccoon that dumps over your trash, like if I'd have to go out there one more time. Pick up the trash from the raccoons. There's a bigger picture. And we just have to kind of figure out what emotion or why this is sparking that chord with

John Moore 15:46

us. Yeah, and I think I think you hit on something that really resonated with me too, that the idea that animals perceive things that we can't, that we're incapable of with our normal five senses, and sort of, I remember hearing something. So we have like, you know, three types of or two types of

cells in our eyes that pick up light, one picks up color, and one picks up black and white. And some animals like the mantis shrimp, which is an interesting animal, if you ever look that up.

Well, I was listening to this thing on NPR, and they were talking about perception, they have 1616 kinds of receptors in their eyes, we have no idea what they can perceive, like no, like that, we can't, we couldn't even think really on that level, it's sort of like trying to think about what, what five dimensions are, like, you know, four dimensions are hard enough, three, three dimensions, way can grasp, four dimensions are hard enough, and then add another dimension on top of that, I can't, you know, I can't wrap my brain around that. And, and the other thing I thought of, and I think everybody has had this experience, but if you're if you have training in shamanism, this experience is a little bit different. If you're sitting there at night, and you have a cat and all sudden they stop it just look up at the corner of the room. And you know, if you're, if you're if you're trained, or if you're particularly sensitive, you're looking at like, oh, there's somebody over there, that there they can actually see, they're actually seeing, you know, an invisible person or being over in that corner of the room. And I know a lot of people get freaked out.

But your Yeah, your animals can can sense so much more than we can just, you know, even on a fit on a physical level, the senses of sight and smell and hearing are all different, but on a spiritual level, because they're so open, because they don't have egos. They don't block anything out. And they're just really, really open. So I find that to be really cool.

Jody Crotty 17:53

Yeah, and they live in the moment. They don't foresee the future. They don't really, I shouldn't say they don't care about the past. But it's not really they live in the present moment. And that's a huge lesson for all of us to understand, being more present in the moment. You know, whatever happens in the future is going to happen in the future. Whatever happens in the past has happened in the past, but we've learned from that. So living in the moment and living present is how the animals are kind of helping us. And so again, to go back, we have freewill. So we can choose whether or not we want to live in the present moment. Or we can choose to live in the past. And again, that's the freewill. But to go back, John, to what you were saying about the energies in the room, and the receptors, absolutely 100%, your animal is picking up on that energy. And it is scientifically proven. I mean, we we don't see gravity, but we see the effects of gravity. Same thing with animals, sensing the energy, and then the feeling of like, oh my gosh, I'm looking at my cat who's now looking at a blank wall in the dark. I'm feeling like that's my great aunt flow coming through. Why is that? Because that's probably the feeling that you're getting the fear that it couldn't be your inflow or the excitement that you're feeling because it could be an outflow. Regardless, you still have a choice. And so that conscious brain that we all have, and the feeling there can be a disconnect to where then you're no, that can't be that but that cat is just crazy. And again, that goes around with how you're brought up a negative belief. So you're choosing and that's totally fine too. But it's mainly the feeling that you get getting back in touch with your own intuition. And I feel that's as a child that's why I wrote the children's book is they are so new And they're so amazing with getting it, like the animals, they get it. And so then there's that thought of like, well, I had it when I was a kid, then what happened? Oh, I grew up and kind of moved on. And so I feel that's why I chose to write a children's book. Because I just wish and you probably feel the same way to John, that. I just wish that there was a book like this when I was a kid. Because I feel if there was a book like this saying, yeah, it's your intuition. Yes. It's your creativity. It's, I feel like the choices that I might have made might have been different, I would not have felt, Oh, my goodness, yeah, that Jody, she's, she's often fairy land, she's a little crazy. She's, she's out talking to the trees. And, and that energy kind of created, sometimes that negative belief to where you create a brought that, and then you start that. So again, I feel that's the premise of why I wrote a children's book opposed to an adult version, but adults can read it too, and get the same feeling of trusting your own intuition.

John Moore 21:11

Yeah, I love children's books I read, even though my, my kids, my kids are voracious readers, and they read adult books now. But, you know, I still will, you know, in a bookstore or a library, pick up a children's book, because for one thing, I think they're so well written, they have to be they have to be really succinct for one thing, right? You have to, you know, and sometimes they're rhyming or whatever. But the artwork can be so incredible in these children's books, as simple as it can be, or whatever, I just think I just think there's a beauty and an innocence to that, that I really love. And, you know, the idea of growing up and having in like, learning to shut things down, or learning shut things off, shove them back into the shadow, do a lot of shadow work. You know, when I was a kid, I had I had out of body experiences, and I didn't know what they were, you know, it was like flying around my town flying around the house. I had no idea what was going on. It was, you know, I thought it was cool. But also a little scary. And I remember just like going to my local library and finding, you know, finding a book on out of body experiences and like, checking it out and reading. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is this is what this is what's been going on with me it was spontaneous. This is what's been going on with me. And you know, my mom, being being my mom, and I love love my mom don't want to say anything bad about my mom, but she's a mom, your mom, love your mom love my mom. She's a religious person. She's you know, doesn't, you know, none of the nothing that smacks of anything occult or anything at all. And so she's like, why are you reading that book? You shouldn't read that book and that back and so it was like, Oh, I guess I should guess I should shut this down. You know, I guess I shouldn't explore this. Well, you know, I now as a shamanic practitioner, I do this on purpose every day. So you know, it's okay. It's okay, mom, I'm or I'm alright. Living fine. Mom.

Jody Crotty 23:16

He's talking about the illustrations on with children's books. I agree with you, John 100%. So, looking for an illustrator. There's an amazing story with the illustrator, Katherine Ramsdale, who illustrated my book. She's very young, and she's a friend of mines daughter. And she, she said to me, she's like, I can illustrate your book. And at the time, you know, she was 17. And she's like, I can illustrate your book. And I'm like, okay, cool. So these, what she perceived as doodles were amazing, I was blown away. I said, Katherine, these are doodles. And so then the, the collaboration happened to where I said, I want you to take the story, I want you to take the characters and just go with it, which is the premise of my book. And Katherine nailed it. In all of these illustrations. She was amazing. She picked up on what the animal in a sense, she was communicating with the characters in the book, and the way that she was able to incorporate the the girl from the book, and a little bit of herself as well as me. And then she also incorporated a genius idea. I don't, I don't want to give it away. When it came to the characters themselves, how can we have the characters of the book integrate with each other? So there is an Easter egg in the book? And it was brilliant. So Katherine did an amazing job. with being able to do these illustrations connected with the book, that is what the book is about. Seeing, hearing feeling, what do you think Gus would say? What do you think this looks like? What are you feeling that he feels when he goes to take his winter nap? All of these things, Katherine nailed it. And she is a fantastic, fantastic artists. And she has an amazing road ahead of her on this journey. And so being I was so honored that she did all of the illustrations for this book. She really got it. And I'm so proud of her again, being as young as she is and saying that, Oh, these are just doodles what? These are doodles, most illustrators who are older, don't even get it. And so that was another reason why I chose a younger illustrator, or the book.

John Moore 25:56

Yeah, I think that's fantastic. I think clearly somebody with a with a very bright future ahead of her and imagine, gosh, what was I doing it? 17? Yes, that spent a little time traipsing around Europe and doing things doing doing things I don't want to speak about but yeah, 17 I definitely was not. Nobody was hiring, you need to illustrate a children's book at that age, for sure. But I do think it's great. And I think I have seen so many fantastic young artists and how great to have to illustrate your first published book at 17. And hopefully, you know, I don't know if her intention is to do more illis you know, more illustrations along those lines, but definitely a bright future ahead. So that's, that's pretty exciting. I want to ask, So if if I weren't, let's say, let's say I grab the max, the 17 year old Chihuahua. And he's a great he's a great guy. By the way. He's got real Chihuahua.

Jody Crotty 27:06

Don't give me too much information. Okay,

John Moore 27:08

I won't. I won't. But this is more hypothetical. Right. So let's say I bring them to you. And I say I want to know what's going on with Max. He I can't tell if he's happy. He's unhappy. This new cats in the house, I can tell he's a little bit bothered by the change in the house. He's 17. He set in his ways. He's ancient, right? How many? How many years is 17? And dog years? Very old. Very set in his ways. He likes quiet this cats running all over the house. You're giving me too much. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Jody Crotty 27:44

What's get his perspective on stuff? He does feel old. What if he

John Moore 27:48

writes? Right? Okay. So that's just my Yeah, you're right. That's my, that's my perspective. What would that what would that be like for you? Do you how do you how do you sense what's going on with him? And or, or any animal for that?

Jody Crotty 28:02

Yeah, so a normal session is I connected with the person first, I find it easier for when we go into the animal part of the reading session, to connecting with the person just to kind of see what's coming up for you. Because when we get to the animal part, it makes that connection a lot stronger, because you're part of their life as much as they're part of your life. So it's really important to understand your perspective of things as well. So I connected with the person, obviously, with the person's permission, I'm not going to go in there if you don't want me to this totally fine, too. So then I get the gist of the person moving on the animal, the less information I know about a situation, the better the information that comes through, so the better the reading for you. So then that way, you know, I'm not interpreting it, you know, it's coming directly from the animal. I'm just that middleman kind of passing along that information for you. I didn't look you up on Google or anything like that. On Facebook, you know that the information that I'm sharing is coming directly from the animal. So it can come in through feelings it can come through. Like I said, song lyrics, nine times out of 10 It doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense to me why your dog is coming dressed up as a clown. I have no idea. But for you, it will make sense because you can either say oh my gosh, I'm petrified of clowns, or, yeah, he is really silly like a clown. So it's all through symbolism that the animals sometimes will communicate. Even in spirit, the animals that have crossed over will share through symbolic means or song lyrics or they give me a feeling in my physical body. So we get to ask a question. open ended questions are usually best. You're gonna read more information From that animal, if you have, you know, why is he really acting like that? What is it that he wants me to know? Instead of? Is he happy? Did he make it to heaven? Things like that. And the animals most often will kind of laugh at me they're like, really? That's the kind of question that you want to ask. So it's it's very basic, it's very casual. During the session, you're part of the session, as much as I'm part of the session in the animals part of the session. It's almost a three way conversation, or listening to what the animal has to say, how he's responding. Sometimes, if the information doesn't make sense, during the session, that's okay, too. We just go back to the animal and say, Hey, fluffy, can you show us in a different way that will make sense to John? Or, Oh, wow. And then if it still doesn't make sense, you trusting that the information that came through will make sense when it's supposed to make sense to you, it might not make sense to this moment, because I get like a call or an email, or a text message a week later from a client saying, Oh, my gosh, do you remember when you said that? No, I really don't. But I do tell that, okay, well, it just happened. Okay. But it didn't make sense to you in the moment we were doing. So again, it's all that energy work that the animals are helping you to discover about yourself. So that's a session and, and when we go into a session, the humans and I'm gonna say humans versus animals, humans have so much more emotion than the animals do. And that's not a bad thing. We can if we are still in the grieving process of We've just lost a pet. Or like you, Oh, he's so old. He's, you know, barely hanging on. Okay, that's how you feel. But what if he feels like he feels like he's like Hugh Jackman, and he's ready to go play Wolverine in the movie, he feels great. He feels fine in his body. And that's the perception that we see that they are trying to communicate, I don't feel that way, I do get a lot of questions from owners who want to know

when their animal is going to crossover. And this is a big, big one. For for people to understand. Going back to what I said before, animals have a choice. They have a soul just like we do. And they choose how and when, who's gonna be there when they want to go. And it all revolves the lessons that they are helping us to learn about the transition process. If somebody is afraid of death, an animal might not want that person there when they cross over. And so those questions kind of come up. And it's a very emotional time for for individuals to talk about that. Another case in point is, I have clients who come to me and say, My dog is so anxious, I can't bring my dog anywhere. He's so anxious, he says, Can you help? Can you help? Okay, it's not really the dog that's anxious. And so most people, John are like, No, it's not me. It's not me. It's like, okay, well, what can the animal do to help you work on this issue of maybe anxiety in public places, and things like that? So we get a lot of running the gamut of those types of questions.

John Moore 33:46

I had a really, really interesting conversation with a friend some time ago, about dogs in particular. And the question came up with somebody else, and he brought it to me. And the question was, can dogs be racist? Right? And my answer was no dog, you know, dogs don't know or care about race. And the person who had asked him was saying, Well, you know, I have this dog, and this dog loves everyone. But this dog will bark at people of a different race, when it when it sees them. And, and my thought, and I don't know, because I haven't met this other person. My father is the dog is responding to the owners energy when the owner sees this person, and this person might not. I mean, we all have implicit bias, right? We all have that I'm not excluding myself. From this at all. I work really hard to be tolerant and loving of everyone, but I grew up in this culture. And I recognize that that we all have implicit bias. So I think this person may have some hidden feelings towards people of different races that the dog is responding to. And then he's like, Oh, wow, my dog doesn't like people have this, this racist bar he barks at them, he doesn't bark at this person. And I'm just thinking to myself, that dogs picking up on you, my friends, because dogs don't care. Dogs don't really don't care, like who your parents were or what, you know where you came from, or any of that, it just seemed, it was just kind of a funny question. And when I, when I talked to my friend about he was like, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That really makes so much sense.

Jody Crotty 35:29

And so it's we're in even taking it one step further. We're all made up of energy. And I wouldn't say that the animals don't care about race, it's just not as important as humanity. And in the bigger picture, animals get the bigger picture. That's why they can feel when we connect those dots when we finally understand hey, wow, that's, that's kind of cool. So they're, they're picking up to go back to what you were saying about the what was the the squid

John Moore 36:02

was the mantis shrimp? Yeah, the shrimp,

Jody Crotty 36:05

the shrimp and the sensors. So Scientifically speaking, yes, animals are so much more in tune and to everything around them through their nature, whether there be domesticated dog to a wild wolf. So it's the energy that they're picking up on, it's the vibrations that they're picking up on. So in that sense, race doesn't really, I don't want to say play a card. But if that person is having a bad day, or if that person is not in a good vibrational state, that dog could be saying, You know what, this is not a good person for you to be around right? Now. Let's go back over here. So how is the dog going to do that he is going to bark, he's going to kind of get in the middle of you, in addition to what you're saying, John, is that he's picking up on that energy. So it's very true, the dog or whatever animal is picking up the energy of the person, the picking up the energy of the person that they care about. So it's almost like they're working double time, sure to kind of get into whatever situation, because they want you to feel safe, they want you to feel protected, they want you to feel love, they want you to feel that you're worthy of having a communication with this person. So that's what they're teaching us. It's almost, again, it's that innate thing that we dismiss all of the time. So your friend, kind of through talking to you finally understood well, yeah, maybe. And just that small shift in his own energy is now going to shift how the dog is going to respond to another person, or whether it be a male or female, we do get that my dog doesn't like males. Okay, let's figure out why is it the person? Or is it because of the child, not the child but a trauma maybe that the dog is associating with the expansion of the soul is so much more and so we you know, reincarnate and things like that. That's a whole nother topic to get into. But we still have I call it like the cosmic residue, or like the cobwebs within our souls. If we come down here, we still have to learn a lesson. Sometimes we know and understand that lesson. When we come down in the lifetime. We go back home, we got to learn it again. We got to come back. And so the animals are trying to teach us to evolve so we can understand and kind of get that lesson.

John Moore 38:41

Yeah, that makes Yeah.

Jody Crotty 38:43

Go back. I don't want to go back to the dog. Your Is it your girlfriend's 17 year old dog?

John Moore 38:49

Yeah, yeah. Max.

Jody Crotty 38:51

And his name is Max. Yeah. All right. So just give me a sec. So you can keep talking. I'm just gonna connect really quickly with Max. And I'm gonna say so how do you feel about John? Do you have any information? Is that okay, John? Yeah. Oh,

John Moore 39:11

yeah. Max. Yeah, absolutely.

Jody Crotty 39:15

Again, it's more surrounding the your relationship with him. And right away when I'm connecting in with Max, he's showing me a bright, spherical light. And he's all he's shown me Yoda from Star Wars is carrying this light. So when I asked him about the light Oh, he says he's the light for you. He bringing you the light, is what he's saying. He's also sharing he wants to share his wisdom with you So he's presenting you with this. And I know it sounds very sci fi movie, but that's what he's showing me. So he showed me Yoda. So when I think of Yoda, I think of somebody who's wise, not somebody who's in a Star Wars movie. So is there a bigger message? Man, Max, that you want to share with John? Max is saying sometimes, John, you don't see the light. You don't see the light within yourself. And sometimes you don't see the light in him and other people. Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes sense. For sure. And so he wants to share this wisdom of light with you. And he keeps calling him he says he's very spry. I'm very good.

But how he's saying it is like an old man voice. I'm very spry.

When he's saying keeps an eye don't use the word spry.

John Moore 41:03

I think I think I have used that word to describe him. Sometimes.

Jody Crotty 41:07

There you go. So that makes sense. So yeah, it's just how they are trying to share in this particular situation, and bringing your awareness to. So yeah, and just by knowing that is shifting, and so you're like, Oh, he's old and all these things. But he's like, No, I'm feeling pretty spry. I don't know what you're talking

John Moore 41:30

about. Yeah, yeah, he Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. And something that's really funny is he actually he likes being dressed up. Something he actually really enjoys it. I know. Not all animals do. But he has a little Yoda hat years in the hole. Are you serious? Yeah. Real. Yeah, for real. Real, it's very funny. We have all kinds of pictures of him dressed up as like a dragon and dressed up as Yoda and dressed. He's so cute. He's such a cute,

Jody Crotty 42:03

the less information that I know. I mean, I didn't need a picture of him. I didn't need him touching me or anything. It was allowing that energy to come in, and allowing him to present in a way that he wanted to present. So it was his perspective. He knew how that was important for you to understand. And cool. You look like Yoda to me. And so what, and that's really cool that you validated that he has a Yoda costume. So for me, I don't need that information. And so I have several clients who say, Okay, can you come to the house? I can't, it's a little distracting for me, because I want to get down and play with the dog and do all of these things. So it takes a little bit more of energy management because I have such a good time with them. But again, energy, it just, it just kind of comes I mean in flows. So I don't want to interpret how that dog wants to get the message or that how that animal wants to get the message to the person.

John Moore 43:10

Yeah, it's very similar to when I'm working shamanic Lee. I have to try to set what I'm seeing aside. And very frequently information comes through, and symbols and metaphors and makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. And I had a I had a client, for example, in Scandinavia. And when I met with her, and I was working, I kept seeing turtles swimming above her. I'm like, I don't know, this might mean absolutely nothing to you. But there's turtles all around you just like my grandmother collected turtles. And it's actually weird for this part of the world. But she had pet turtles, and she's she passed away. And so yeah, I mean, I just, it's hard sometimes I get it like you want to, you want to set your thinking mind aside a little bit and just deliver, deliver the information. So I totally get not kind of like front loading, right when people give me too much information upfront, and then it you know, my conscious mind tries to cram the symbols and stuff that I'm getting into whatever I already know. And that might make things worse. Frequently, it does frequently.

Jody Crotty 44:30

The message in that too, is that your clients might need that from you. Just a listening ear. I've had clients do that too, to where they're like I have to get this out. I have to get this out. Okay. And you just allowing, so everybody is different, especially again during the grieving process. They feel like such a loss over their pet and I feel as being a pet loss professional and I Understanding families in that aspect allowed me to kind of open the door a little bit more when it came to animal communication, especially animals that are on the other side. That's kind of, I don't want to say facilitated it. But kind of open that door a little bit wider to say, Okay, what what is happening here? What is going on? The biggest challenge, I think, for all of us is to understand is to trust that trust, I think with just humans in general is really, really hard. We have a hard time allowing the trust to come in and to and to trust it. Just like with shamanism, you have to trust the information that's coming through, whether it be from the trees, the earth, and there's that knowing that innate knowing I just know that this is happening. You can't explain it, because it's not going to be on Google. I just know it. And that's the whole part that the animals say, yeah, she gets it. We've connect the dots. Yeah. Absolutely.

John Moore 46:01

Yeah. Yeah, it's, and this, this relationship that we have with animals, I think is is so special, and it's so important. It's important to us to our continued evolution, it was it's been important to us all along the way, if you look back to like, even before there was agriculture, they were domesticating dogs and horses, right. So that came first, these relationships with animals came way before we started planting crops, or, or building cities or any of these, any of these things. And so those relationships to me, I always, I don't know, the scientific aspect of my mind always kind of looks at things, from an evolutionary perspective, like, the important stuff came first. Right? So animal relationships, shamanism came before any kind of organized thing any before, you know, we see it in cave paintings. And we, of course, most a lot of cave paintings are having to do with animals, and not just hunting scenes, but actually the people changing into animals, the animals changing into people. And there are I think, that in the past our relationship, because of the way that you know, culture has shaped our the way we view things, I think we were much, much closer and much more in tune, I think we had to be to survive, we don't have to be anymore, I can live in a house and I don't have to, I don't have to interact with the animals outside or, you know, you know, compete for food or any of those things. But there is no going back to that. And unlearning, in a way is similar to going back to our childhood when we were open and free. So going back to the, I guess, the childhood of mankind, and is also like going back to our own individual childhood where we were open, where we had these relationships, and we were living closer to nature, we were living in more relationship with the animals, we're living in relationship to the trees to each other, we had to, we still have to, but people I think, you know, especially today, during the pandemic, people are, you know, we lock ourselves away in our homes and don't interact much. But that relationship is is extremely important. And you hit the nail on the head and it's shamanism is all about relationship. It's all about relationship to self, to spirit, to others, to animals to nature. And that's how we survive and move forward as a species if and if we neglect those relationships, no matter how small or whatever we think they are. You know that that's a real detriment to us as a as a species, I think. Anyway, that's my, that's my soapbox. I'll climb climb back down.

Jody Crotty 48:59

To agree with you. Yeah, it's it's learning lessons. And you think, Okay, well, I know I'm not going to stick my finger in a light socket, or I

put my hand on a stove. Why? Well, you learned your lesson. And our parents have always said that. Well, you're gonna learn your lesson. Yeah. Uh huh. And so the animals that are in our lives, help us in that way to help us learn these lessons. And it is all about choice. And to go back to when you were saying about the relationships of, you know, the, the cave people and how they celebrated the animals. They even, you know, the hunting, they never wasted any part of that. Right and the animals knew and made kind of the choice to say we're here to work together. We're here you know, because you are learning about how to survive you're learning this you're learning the ways in and you think of all, especially shamans, how connected they are, and animals in, in tune, just like with the gravity and everything, we are all connected. And we're all kind of moving together. And that's the amazing thing about animal communication. We can all do it. It doesn't require any special skill, as long as you are being present in the moment, allowing the information to come in and trusting it. And I mean, another example is, how many times have you gone to a party, and you get all dressed up, you have to go to this party, you feel obligated to go to the party, your friends are going to be there, you're going to have a good time, you get to the door and the bouncer is not very nice. Now you're feeling I really don't want to go in there. I feel like I'm going to have a miserable time. But you know, in your conscious brain, hey, my friends are in there. They're waiting for me. So what do you do? You squash that feeling of shakiness. And you let your brain take over. So then you go to the bar, and you order silver drink, the bartender is not very nice, or he messes up your order. There's still that innate feeling saying I, there's something about this place, and the universe, and the energy and the connected kind of keeps giving you these signs like this. And then you don't get it. Right, very much. So with the animals, the animals are communicating with you, you're just not getting it sometimes. Because whether it be a negative belief about yourself, that you're not worthy of being lovable, and your dog loves you so much, or, yeah, it's, I could go there's my soapbox. Because I could go on that forever. So yeah, it's getting back in touch, and acknowledging and trusting your intuition. And allowing yourself to feel it. If it doesn't feel good, then don't do it. I mean, and the animals are saying the same thing. It doesn't feel good, don't do it.

John Moore 52:17

Yeah, for sure. There was this.

There's this really cool study, and I'm going to paraphrase it because I can't I can't remember exactly what happened. But I think it was with chimpanzees, when they were looking at two troops of chimpanzees that weren't in contact with each other. And one troop, like learned a new skill, how to use a tool and chimpanzees, we used to think that only humans use tools, but that's wrong. Crows use tools, chimpanzees use tools. So we're not as smart as we think we are

compared to compared to our other non human people, friends.

Jody Crotty 55:00

I guess. Or if you have a dog that dresses up in a Yoda costume and he is presenting you with a spherical ball. Yeah. Yeah. Take it. Take the ball. That's the lesson to be learned, right?

John Moore 55:14

Well, we believe it or not, we've been talking for almost an hour.

Jody Crotty 55:18

Oh my gosh.

John Moore 55:20

So, but I mean, this has been absolutely fantastic. And I feel like I could talk to you for like three more hours easily. So I hope that, um, we can have you on again, sometime in the near future. I do want to, I want to give a, I want to give a plug for your book. Because if you have children in your life, get a copy of this book, just just do it. It will be a fantastic gift. Or guess what if you don't have children in your life, get get a copy of this book, too. And one of the nice things about this book is that $1 goes for every book, a dog goes directly to the Center for Wildlife and Cape neddick. Main, they do fantastic work. It's an animal. It's an animal rescue. And I have, I have had the opportunity to call them to pick up animals that I have found, and they do fantastic work. So let me talk about this book a little bit. It's called, do you do you talk with animals? And the description is Have you ever talked to the bear a fish or even a stinkbug? I can't say I've ever have talked to a stinkbug. But Oh, that wasn't enough. stinkbugs very

Jody Crotty 56:30

interesting story with little stinkbug.

John Moore 56:33

Yeah, there's a there's a follow up book there the wisdom of stinkbugs? Yes, absolutely. What do you think animals would share with you? In do you talk with animals, animals share heartfelt symbols with a girl showing, showing her about connecting with her intuition through what she sees, hears, feels and knows about the world around her, engaging the reader to embrace and discover through their senses, and asking, Who did you connect with today? This sweet and heartfelt book about animal communication and intuition will delight children and adults for your two years to come. And I wholeheartedly agree. Get this for the kids in your life, get this for the adults in your life. Get this for yourself. And then to get this book, they will go directly to your website.

Jody Crotty 57:21

Correct? Yes. So they're going to go to JodyCrotty.com, which is jodycrotty.com. And there on my website, you'll see animal communication sessions as well as where to get the book. And as John said, every book sold dollar goes to the Center for Wildlife, the Center for wildlife. One of the characters in the book, actually Fern, the owl, I had connected so all of the characters actually in the book are animals that I've communicated with even the stinkbug. And the messages that they have, and that what they shared with me is what's in the book. So fern is one of the ambassadors at the Center for wildlife. So their mission is to help rehabilitate wild animals, as well as educate the community and people about how we can do our part to help all animals. So that's why I decided to have Fern in my book and she really encouraged me to the wisdom that she shared with me. Even the stinkbug had some wisdom, John,

John Moore 58:32

I believe you I just have never I've never talked to a stink bug, maybe I should.

Jody Crotty 58:39

It's them. The message is is really about your own uniqueness. We all know that stink bugs are not very pleasant when we squish them and things like that. So and I actually have a photograph of the stink bug and so Katherine did an amazing job capturing stinky bug. And it was really all about embracing your own uniqueness. Just like they have their own unique little odor. You might not like it just like sometimes we don't like those pieces about ourselves but it's really embracing your yourself through your own intuition and it's it's an amazing book and it was such a joy to connect in with the animals and hear what they wanted to share. And just like our pets, animals want to communicate with us to to bring about that human animal connection.

John Moore 59:41

Well thank you so much again, I will. lovely to have you here. I will absolutely ask you to come on again. I feel like we could talk for three more hours and and have lots to talk about. For those of you who are interested I will put the I will put Are these the URL to her? Her website, and she's got a beautiful website, by the way. And I just wanted to to comment and say like, you've got a video I think of a collie on the front of your website or is it a Sheltie is a call your show?

Jody Crotty 1:00:15

Yeah, there's another interesting story about that, too. So I had a web designer who I absolutely love. Her name is Alison. And we wanted to revamp my website.

And I was like, yeah, and we're talking about doing a video and all that. And so she pulled up this video. I started to cry immediately when I saw this video, because as a child, I had a collie, and you read my bio, just see was her name. Jessie was my best friend, and I'm gonna cry just thinking about her. She's taught me so many lessons and still teaches me lessons today. And it was amazing that Alison, who was my web designer, put that video up there. Again, she didn't know anything about it. Very much synchronicity, and I was blown away. And of course, I called her crying thanking her for putting in she's like, I just grabbed a video and I was like, Alison, you have no idea. You grabbed

John Moore 1:01:16

a part of me. And that's, that's why I keep it up there as well. So it's in my childhood dog was a Sheltie or miniature Collie. So when I clicked on that, I was like, yeah, like it rocked me back in my seat a little bit when I clicked on that as well. And, man, what a what a smart, beautiful breed of animal. They are just, yeah, get it, get it get a collie or a Sheltie in your life. They're just fantastic.

Jody Crotty 1:01:48

See how the animal communication still works? John, you have that dog so many years ago, when you're a kid, it's that emotion and that sense of honor that you were blessed with that dog.

And so that's the connectedness that I talked about. That never goes away, never goes away. You will always have that.

John Moore 1:02:10

Absolutely. Well, folks, we have to wrap up. I know we could talk for a lot longer. But thank you again for for joining me today. I'm gonna I'll play play some music and, and we'll we'll we'll talk to you next time.

Jody Crotty 1:02:26

Thank you, John.

John Moore 1:02:27

Thank you.

Announcer 1:02:56

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John Moore. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshaman.com

Ep42 How To Create Healthy Habits Like Daily Meditation

Announcer 0:28

Hello, and welcome to speaking spirit where we talk about all things spiritual. Your host, John Moore is a shamanic practitioner and spiritual teacher. And now here's John.

John Moore 0:50

Hello, hello, everybody. As I am recording this right after the New Year, I wish to, I wish to wish you a Happy New Year Happy 2022. And I've made a prediction for 2022 that I think things are going to look up on a global scale. And what I mean by that, having been through now, a couple of years of the pandemic, and everyone feeling so isolated, and you know, detached from one another. I think things are gonna change this year, I'm not exactly sure how we're going to come be able to come together more, maybe that comes through? Pardon me, maybe that comes through new treatments for COVID Making things safer, maybe that comes through new ways of coming together, virtually or what have you. But I believe it's gonna I believe things are gonna get better this year. I've done a little looking ahead, so to speak, and seen what is probable for us. And I think, you know, I don't don't like to fully predict the future a whole lot, because I do believe in free will. And I've done a couple of episodes on divination, one, specifically on divination and freewill. So I'm not going to say how necessarily things are going to get better, but they they are, they're going to get better this year. I think it's going to happen. It it looks like things, there's going to be some changes some turnaround around springtime. So something to look forward to, given that we're in the beginning of the new year. And a lot of people I don't know if this is true in every country, or if this is mostly a US thing. But a lot of people make New Year's resolutions, they make goals for the new year I'm How am I going to have a lot of things are usually around changing themselves. Particularly there can be a lot of goals around fitness. You know, if you watch television or on the Internet or anything, you're going to get bombarded with advertisements for gyms and fitness equipment, and all kinds of stuff. But what do we know? What do we know about? Well, you know, these resolutions, what we know about them is that most of them fail, and most of them don't last longer than a few months, right, I'm going to get into shape. I'm a surfer in the gym regularly, I'm going to, I'm going to run regularly, I'm going to meditate regularly, I'm going to do XY and Z. And most of them don't last a whole a whole long and you know and that that is true of a lot of things that we try to do when we're building new habits. And so in this episode, I want to talk about some hopefully practical ways to create new habits, some things that you can do. And I'm going to talk about the psychological aspect of that i Amongst other things, I am a coach I take on clients from a coaching perspective. You know, this is goes along with my shamanic practice and my teaching. And you know, one of the things that I work with clients a lot on is how to create forward momentum. You know, whatever, in coaching clients normally come with some kind of goal or something they want to alleviate, you know, I'm not happy with my job, I'm not happy with my home or my relationships or some aspect of their life they want to improve. And, you know, we can look at that from a spiritual perspective, but there's also the psychological and the behavioral perspective as well. How do we create the behaviors that will make being successful in whatever area whatever realm more automatic, easier, more likely to happen? And a lot of that centers around creating habits.

Um, you know, we are, we are creatures of habit, you would think that creating habits would be extremely easy, we can get, you know, we can get addicted to cigarettes really easily, we can get addicted to sex, and we can get addicted to alcohol, drugs, all kinds of things we can get addicted to so easily. Why isn't it? Why isn't it easier to build healthy habits. Specifically, today, I'm going to talk about I'm going to use meditation as an example, because this is a spiritual podcast. Now, if you already have a meditation habit, or a meditation practice that you do regularly, then this, it's not to say, this podcast won't apply to you, because you can take what I'm going to go through and apply it to something else in your life, but I wanted to give people something useful to work with something useful to work on. If you didn't have something, if you want to build a habit, you know, doing something else, then certainly, the things I'm going to have to tell you, today should apply to that as well. So this is going to be probably one of the more practical podcasts where I'm not just gonna, you know, sort of spread my opinion about things, although there will be a fair amount of my opinion involved, I can't really prevent that from coming through. But let's say that you wanted to start to meditate or you have done some meditation, and you want to make that a regular practice. And that would be a fantastic thing to do. The benefits of meditation are well studied. From, you know, not even talking from a spiritual perspective. But from a mental and physical perspective. Meditation is fantastic, lower stress, lowers blood pressure, lowers inflammation, creates more psychological resilience. Parmi improves our relationships, it does all kinds of things. And there are 1000s upon 1000s of studies of meditation out there that you can read for yourself and look at the benefits of meditation. So if you don't have a regular meditation practice, you know, you may want to think about that. It's one of the easiest things you can do for your health. And, you know, it doesn't cost anything, you know, unless you decide to you can take a meditation class, you know, that might cost something, or you can, you know, go find YouTube videos on meditation or, you know, find guided meditations or whatever. Okay, but let's say you want to build a meditation practice. And so you want to meditate, you set a goal, I'm going to meditate. I'm going to meditate an hour and a half every day. And how long does that last? Maybe a day, maybe two. And then you're like, oh, I don't have an hour and a half. I got up too late this morning. I'll just you know, I'll worry about that tomorrow. And then tomorrow comes you're like, Oh, I really don't feel like this. I need to make my coffee. I'm having a sip of my coffee right now. I need to make my coffee I need my breakfast. And I'm running late again am I gonna say in a couple days like that? The meditation practice is over cut through done and we don't think about it again maybe till next year. And you know, don't if this is you if this is is a pattern you have done, don't beat yourself up over it. That's not the point of this podcast. What I'm saying is, this is natural. This is how things go. Most of the time for most people, the vast majority of people, people have New Year's resolutions, people who resolve to get fit, or stop smoking or any of those things. So those, you know, those habits can be challenging. Particularly if we go around, you know, if we go around trying to add new habits, or delete old habits, you know, without some idea of how habits are formed, or putting some thought into actually creating the habit.

So what happens most of the time, is that we put a lot of thought into the what, what are we going to do, I'm going to work out for 45 minutes every day. But we don't actually think about, Oh, you want to think about the perspective, I want to create a, an exercise habit that will last me the rest of my life that will end and I will naturally get into shape, like we think about the, I'm going to fit into that bathing suit, or I'm going to look this way, or I'm going to lose this many pounds as the goal. And it's very frequently a large, long term, large, long term goal. And there's nothing wrong with large long term goals, I've got lots of large, long term goals. But trying to tackle that on day one, is not great. And so again, let me use meditation, meditation is going to be the example I use throughout this episode. Because because it is a spiritual, spiritual, physical and psychological practice, and it benefits everyone. And I'm also going to use a talk about a few myths of meditation that prevent people from practicing sometimes. So that'll be sort of an allied topic along with how to build healthy habits, consciously build healthy habits. So, you know, I talk to a lot of people and I have, from time to time teach meditation. And I've taught meditation online, which is kind of interesting. And, you know, I try to teach people how to create a meditation practice, which is essentially about building a habit. So what happens very frequently, in my observation, from talking to a lot of people that meditation is, people say, Okay, I'm gonna start meditating, I'm gonna sit down and close my eyes for an hour. And I'm going to stop my thoughts. And then I will be fully enlightened. The very first time I tried to meditate, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but not a lot. So the number one complaint I hear from people who claim they can't meditate is I can't stop my thoughts, my thoughts, keep going. My response to that is, congratulations, you're alive. And your thoughts are never going to stop until you become the Buddha. So the bad news is, you are not the Buddha yet. Part of you is but you are not fully immersed in your Buddhahood at the moment. That's the bad news. The good news is you're alive and your consciousness is working, and thoughts are arising and you're aware of them. Those are all good things, all good things to be expected. The goal of meditation is not to stop your thoughts. The goal is to meditate. That's it. The practice is the goal. The benefits that you get are side effects. The lower the blood pressure, the lower stress all of those things. They may be goals of yours. They might be goals, oh, I'm going to meditate to reduce stress. I'm going to meditate to do this, but those things are side effects, right? It's like saying, I'm going to work out to lose weight. Okay, losing weight is a side effect of working hours. But if we shift our perspective Have a little bit. And, you know, we say I'm, I'm going to work out. Because I love, I'm going to find a way that I love at getting exercise. And I'm going to exercise just for the enjoyment of it, and then make sure I enjoy it every time I do it, you will very quickly build or at least start to build an exercise habit. And you will lose weight as a side effect, if that you know, is a goal of yours as a side effect of working out.

But if your end goal is, hmm, well, man, I got to lose 30 pounds, and I'm going to go I'm going to work out to lose 30 pounds anymore work out for a week. And it's hard. And you got to get up early in the morning and you got to drive to a gym and you got to put on weird clothes and shower in a weird place and do all these things. And then you look at the scale after a week and you've lost half a pound. You know, like huh, at this rate, it's going to be more than a year, before I lose all that weight, as well just go eat a large pizza, topped with cupcakes. And drink a two liter bottle of soda, too, to wash it all down. And again, I'm exaggerating, but this is what happens a lot people you know, and again, it's it's good, it's fine to have these big long term goals. But one of the problems with one of the problems with you know, setting these goals and building these habits is not seeing results quickly enough. Right, not seeing things happen getting discouraged. And giving up and Breaking the Habit too soon, and that sort of thing. Okay. So with, with meditation, you know, I would say in the same thing with exercise or anything else. I would say start small and set short term goals. So if if exercise are your goal, I'm going to exercise, my goal is to exercise for 30 minutes three times this week. That's much more doable than I am going to exercise for an hour and a half every single day and I'm going to lose 30 pounds in the next two weeks. And, um, you know, we get discouraged a lot. And also, you know, large habits are challenging to install. Right, we've got to make big, big changes, big lifestyle changes, we've got a buck against other habits to do these things. So one of the things that I work on with clients when I coach them, and they say, Well, my goal is to, I don't know, find a new job. Let's say that that's the goal. Well, hmm, you know, we, one of the first things I'll do is to, you know, try to get people into momentum, get people moving. You know, and it's hard. If you think about think about the way momentum and inertia works. Okay, you have a car, you can't go zero to 100 miles an hour instantaneously. You have to, you know, apply the gas and it speeds up over time. Right? You're overcoming the inertia of the car sitting still. Seems kind of true with yourself. Like you have to overcome some inertia. Now, I trained martial arts for decades and taught martial arts for a long time. And one of the things that my one of my teachers told me was the hardest part of training is getting off the couch. And isn't that the truth? I would see people you know, come to class for a week and then not show up again. And what happens is, oh, we're comfortable, you know, oh, there's something good on TV. Oh, I'm hungry. Oh, you know, we'll find all of those things that get in our way. get in our way. So what I will work On with clients frequently is, and this will be my first major tip for building any sort of healthy habit, but I'll apply it to meditation in a moment

is, you know, I'll ask the question, what is the smallest thing you could do right now, that would move you forward towards your goal. And that thing should be so small, that it would seem almost ridiculous not to do it. I will give you an example, from a client and I don't give away my clients name or any identifiable information. So I won't tell you where this person lived or anything about them. But I had a client who's a fantastic photographer. And she was working in a job. That was not what exactly what she wanted. And we talked about her goals, her dreams, all of these things. And she really wanted to have, you know, see her work hanging in a gallery somewhere. And that would be a really cool, kind of long term goal for her. And I said, Well, you know, what do you what are you doing about that right now said, Well, I don't even know my camera. I haven't even taken pictures in a year. My cameras in the back of my closet, my photos are all on hard drives and storage, and this and that. And I said, you know, as to the question, what is the smallest thing that you could do to move your goal forward? That is so small, it would seem almost silly not to do it. I just said, Well, I guess I could take my camera out of the closet. I was like, Cool, take your camera out of the closet. And then the next step was, I guess I can put my camera in the car, whenever I go out. And so if I have an opportunity, I can, you know, go take some pictures somewhere. You know, if I have some time, if I see something that catches my eye, I'll have my camera right there. And so she did that. Um, a couple things happened. So she started, you know, she did all of those things. And she started taking some cool pictures. And in her day job, so to speak, she ran into somebody who ran a gallery who was putting on a show of new artists. And she said, wow, that's really interesting. I'm a photographer, and they got talking. And long story short, she had within within three months of us talk, you know, having that initial conversation, she had booked her first gallery show. You know, and this is, this takes nothing away from her skill. As a photographer, she was always a brilliant photographer. It was just a matter of it was a matter of a number of things. One, she was demonstrating on a spiritual level, she was demonstrating to herself into the universe, what she wanted. You know, and one of the problems with the law of attraction stuff that's out there is, a lot of people take the law of attraction to mean I just sit around on my couch, and wish really hard. And when I do, the universe is gonna drop a box of money into my lap. And if it worked, that way, we would all win the lottery. Right? We'd all be billionaires. It doesn't work that way. I'm sorry to say. The Law of Attraction is wonderful. And it's a fantastic practice. And it does, you know, follow some accurate spiritual principles and that sort of thing. But frequently, it omits action, it admits doing something. You know, and I think people have the idea that, Oh, if I'm actually doing something, I'm not using the law of attraction, which is just not true. You know, the law of attraction is meant to make things meant to create enhanced probabilities. We'll put it that way. So if you know I'm using law of attraction to get a new job, but I don't put my resume out there, or I don't look for jobs or I don't interview, a new job isn't going to, you know, a new job isn't going to jump into my lap. So, you know, it's

it's a false idea that you're just gonna sit around and wish real hard and things are going to happen for you. And I'm sorry to say that that's a false idea. But, but it is, and people will be better served by getting into inspired action and actually doing things towards their goals. So this client of mine gotten into inspired action, she took some very small steps, that led to huge results, but she took steps. And she'd been she'd had this goal, this thing in mind that she wanted to happen for her for years, maybe decades, I don't know, but for a very long time, years and years, didn't do anything about it. Okay. And so stuff isn't just going to happen for you, you're not going to lose weight, if that's your goal, lose body fat. If you sit around and think real hard about it. Well, you're eating two pizzas and a chocolate cake every day. Okay, because your actions are going to run contrary to your to your mind and spirit and your minds not if you're doing those things, your mind is not quite aligned, either. So, alignment is really about getting body, mind and spirit moving in the same direction. So having these goals like why do you want to work out? Why do you want to meditate? Why do you want to do these things? That is important, having the why is important. You know, but not as important as getting into motion getting into action. It's funny saying getting into action with meditation, because you're kind of doing the opposite. But sitting down to meditate is taking the action. So the key here is particularly at the beginning of any habit or change you want to make. do small things. So if I had gone to my client, well, if you want your own show, you need to spend three hours a day taking photographs, and two hours a day editing those photographs and another hour a day. I'm marketing yourself to different galleries and you know, spend every Saturday walking from gallery to gallery with your portfolio. I don't think she would have been able to sustain that for very long. It's too big a change. It's too much to ask. And yeah, I know. I mean, there are some people out there that make huge changes and never look back. But that's pretty rare. For most people, again, most New Year's resolutions, I think 85% go by the wayside within the first couple of months. So I'm trying to give some tips for the rest of us for whom these large changes don't tend not to stick. So make small changes. So with meditation, when I've had people come to me with a goal of creating a meditation habit, I will tell them a couple of things. One is don't sit down and try to meditate for an hour and a half. If you have not meditated before, it's going to drive you crazy. You know, you wouldn't if you've never worked out before, you wouldn't go to the gym for two hours and lift the heaviest weights you possibly could. You know to the point of exhaustion, you would never go back to the gym again, you would most likely injure yourself and the amount of soreness you would feel would keep you out of the gym for quite a long time probably if you ever went back so start with small actions. Okay. If your goal is to start a meditation habit, start with I am going to sit on my cushion for a minute and a half with my eyes closed. And that's it. That's it. That's how we would start. Like yeah, but I'm not enlightened when I just by sitting down for three minutes. Sure. But you're not enlightened by sitting down in your mat for the first time for two hours either. And you're probably not going to stick with meditation if that's how you're trying to do it.

So that's, that's step number one, chunk things down into smaller steps and build over time. So I've told people, you know, if you're starting meditation practice, don't start with longer than five minutes. If you're just beginning there's no reason for it. And then, you know, after about five minutes or so, you're just fighting with your brain Anyway, you've got to get some practice under your belt, and say that your, your brain starts to go, oh, okay, we've done this before. I'm not gonna fight with you, this is safe. This is okay. So small chunks, you know, a couple of the other things I'm going to suggest come from some research on habits, good habits, bad habits, all of that sort of thing. And that's one of them chunking out small things. The other. Another good tip for creating habits. You know, and this goes along with chunking them into smaller things, is, when you have a new habit that you want to create. Let's say I want to drink more water, I'm gonna start by drinking an extra glass a day of water, I am going to change that habit to something I already do habitually. So I brush my teeth in the morning and at night at the same time. So I'm going to add a glass of water to my tooth brushing routine in the morning, I'll start out with that. Okay, so every time I brush my teeth, bright, before I pick up my toothbrush, I'm going to drink a glass of water. And then I'm going to brush my teeth. Or I'll do it after brushing my teeth doesn't matter. But I'm changing that to something that's already a habitual behavior. And then I might add a second glass of water to my nighttime teeth brushing routine. So whenever you can you chain this to habits, you're taking advantage of patterns that you've already built up. So with meditation, it might be you know, whenever I get out of bed, and you know, put my shoes on, before I put my shoes on, I'm gonna sit down on my mat for five minutes, close my eyes and watch my breath. And then I'll put my shoes on, or, you know, whatever, whatever thing that you do every time in the morning. So for me, I make my coffee. Maybe I meditate for five minutes before I before I actually drink my coffee. I'm gonna have a sip right now. Very good coffee this morning. If I don't say so myself. Okay, so that is hit number two. So hit number one was small, small, small, small, small behaviors was the smallest thing you could do. Hint number two is to chain the behavior to other habits that you already have. Take advantage of those neural pathways that are burned in hint number three is to Reis reduce resistance to performing your habit. So resistance is anything that blocks us emotionally physically, whatever. But usually emotionally talking usually about emotional resistance to to performing a task. So I'll give you an example. In I got this from I was listening to a story on NPR the other day. And the woman was in fact talking about habits she had written a book about habits I think called like good habits, bad habits or something like that.

But I you know, this one came up. This statistic came up I knew, I knew that overcoming resistance was one of the keys to to creating habits but I didn't know this particular statistics. So they did a study of people with gym memberships and how often they use them. So somebody who lived within three miles of their gym so they had to drive three miles to go work out of the gym three miles. or less, on average, use the gym and worked out three to five times per month, which doesn't seem like a lot. However, once you crossed five miles, when somebody had to travel five miles, the number of times they worked out, or you know, use the gym, on average fell to once per month. So that two extra miles of resistance, which you know, is a few extra minutes of driving, you know, reduced the, you know, usage to a third or a fifth of what people normally would be normally would be doing. And that tells you how strong a factor resistance is. So how, you know, how do we go about reducing resistance to a new behavior? Well, let's say it's meditation, we'll look at the things that stop you or the things you have to do to meditate are that sort of thing. So you might say, well, you know, when I meditate, I've got to go, you know, put on special clothes, and I've got to get my cushions out and set them up and dim the lights and you know, whatever. Okay, well, let's say you have to wear special comfy clothes to meditate. And you want to meditate in the morning. Maybe at night, you lay out your meditation clothes for the morning. And maybe you set your cushion out. So when you get up in the morning, you can put on your comfy meditation clothes, and just go sit on your mat. Or maybe you've linked that to brushing your teeth, maybe put your comfy clothes on, brush your teeth, and go sit on your mat, and meditate for five minutes. And this, you can link a bunch of behaviors together, right? So pre brushing your teeth, you put on your comfy clothes, I don't change my clothes to meditate. Maybe you do, and that's fine. But I'm just using this as an example. I meditate and whatever I happen to be wearing at the time. And but anyway, it is all about reducing your resistance. So if you want to work out, you know, maybe, don't you, you know, you've a lot of people have, you know, buy the piece of workout equipment, the treadmill or the whatever. And they set up in their house. And then they use it as a clothes rack, right. There's stuff all over it and that sort of thing. And then like, Oh, I've got to you know, if I want to use a treadmill, I've got to clean it off. And that's resistance. Keep your treadmill clean, keep your meditation cushion out and available where you can just sit and meditate, link it to another habit. So the three tips we have so far are small chunks. Linking to another habit and reducing resistance and you can figure out how each of those things works for you. The last kind of the last hint I have and this one can be, you know, a little bit more challenging, I guess. And that is that this has to do with brain chemistry, particularly dopamine. So dopamine is the chemical that is associated with reward in our brain, our sense of being rewarded and we can get a rush of dopamine from different ways frequently alcohol and drugs. You know, the addiction aspect is an addiction to dopamine eating, you know those sorts of things.

And, you know, if you have low dopamine levels, you know, it can be problematic you have things like Parkinson's disease and that sort of thing. So there are you know, there are different ways to naturally increase your dopamine levels. Meditation is one of them. So meditation as long as it can be as long as it's pleasant, positive experience will actually increase your dopamine levels. So it can be a reward unto itself. But some of the other things, so we want to perhaps link increases in dopamine, you know, we want to do things that naturally increase our dopamine. So there are things that you know, like you can eat certain things, you'll do research on your own. changing your diet, getting enough sleep, meditating, eating, you know, eating good proteins, that sort of thing. And you can, you can look up sort of the dietary things as well. But some of the other things that, you know, release dopamine for us, you know, do increase modern, you know, art, but pardon me, little tongue tied there, some of the things that release or increased dopamine for us include sort of like short bursts of exercise. So like moderate intensity exercise, does it. So if you do it too much, you know, not great, but like 30 minutes of moderate intensity exercise, getting enough sleep. When you get enough sleep, there's a lot of dopamine released in the morning. But we can also potentially link habits to things that things that release dopamine as well. So I already said that meditation in and of itself can release dopamine but so can things like listening to pleasant music. So maybe you find music that you play when you meditate that you really enjoy. Okay, maybe if you're working out you listen to you know, a lot of people listen to music on treadmill, or that sort of thing. I've already said meditation, you know, frequently food. Food, you know, eating something we'll be eating something we like will improve dopamine. So but we want to be careful about eating something unhealthful and unhelpful way. But maybe you could, I don't know, as an example, reward yourself with a very small piece of dark chocolate, for example, which has even there's some sugar in it has some health benefits and releases really happy chemicals in our brain. So you know, you have a rule, I have a tiny piece of dark chocolate after I meditate, just as one example of how to do a dopamine dopamine release with your hap habit, so triggering your reward system. Or, you know, I'm only going to, you know, I enjoy watching this trashy TV program, I'm only going to watch it. After I've meditated I've got it, you know, you've got to record it on DVR or something. And I've got to meditate for 15 minutes before I allow myself to watch this trashy guilty pleasure TV show or whatever you can think of things that you find rewarding, that you can use to link to habits and this will increase as we know, rewarding behavior leads to those that behavior increasing. And rewards that release dopamine enhanced that enhance the habit building effect. So those are some very real world, I hope, practical things you can do to create to create habits. And I know I'm specifically specifically focused on meditation habit for this, but it can be anything. But I do want to talk a little tiny bit about meditation at the end of this since if you're if you're listening, perhaps you're interested in, in creating a meditation routine for yourself, building a meditation habit.

And that is a really healthy body, mind and spirit health thing for you to do. If you so decide if you so choose. And then so I want to as somebody who has taught meditation for a while, I want to give you a few pointers, hints, things that holds people back when they start meditating. First of all, there are I don't know, hundreds of 1000s of meditation methods out there. And so no one meditation And method fits every person. So you might have to try some different ones to see which ones work for you. And you might start with some guided, if you've never done it before, start with some guided meditation. That can be if you don't really don't know what to do. Um, I've talked about the number one complaint that I get about meditation, I can't stop my thoughts. Don't make that a goal. Don't think that you're going to stop your thoughts. Think I instead think I'm going to observe my thoughts, I'm going to become aware of thoughts as they arise, I'm going to identify less with my thoughts. And watch them and allow them to pass through my consciousness, like clouds through the sky. That's really what meditation is about. Not stopping your thoughts. Now, as you get better with meditation, your thoughts will slow down, they will become less impactful. They might stop for short periods of time, you might get bursts of energy, all kinds of things. Again, these are side effects. These are, you know, pleasant side effects. They're good, they're good things that happen. But you can't push for that, especially right out of the gate, I can't meditate because my mind is too busy, I can't stop my thoughts. Don't stop your thoughts. That doesn't mean you can't meditate. That's crazy. And then the other. The other, you know, the other complaint is the time thing, oh, I just don't have time. You know, blah, blah, blah. Everybody's got five minutes. Everybody has five minutes, you have five minutes. You're listening to this podcast. You know, and yeah, you might be doing something else you might be listening in the car listening while you're doing something else. But chances are, you can find five minutes in your day after you brush your teeth or, you know, before you settle down to go to sleep at night. My guess is you don't jump out of bed. The second your alarm goes off, and run around and are absolutely busy until you fall asleep. Most people do not operate like that. If you do, you're probably not going to be healthy for very long. As you're you know, your body can't stay active, your body and mind can't stay active, that active all day long. So again, you know, view it as something, view meditation itself. And this could be another hint as well as a reward for a busy day, perhaps, or reward for something else. And you know, change how you think about oh, I have to meditate today I have to do change the you know, change the way you're talking to yourself about it. And so I have to meditate today I need to meditate today should meditate today about I get to meditate today. I'm so excited. I have the privilege of meditating today I have the luxury, I have the reward of meditating today make it a positive thing and not a chore. Do it for the love of it. The rewards will come the rewards are side effects. You know, they say that, you know the the old expression, the journey is the destination. Meditation is the example of that is the prime example of that. Make meditation the goal? Oh, if I you know, I get to meditate at the end of today. I'm looking forward to that. And when I was younger, I used to meditate a lot more. I, you know,

would meditate for at least a half an hour when I woke up in the morning and at least a half an hour before I went to bed and then usually for some length of time in between. I do not meditate that frequently anymore, although I absolutely love to meditate. But it was something that I absolutely looked forward to it felt so good to meditate. And it can can as long as you reduce the resistance to it. As long as you reduce the chatter about the chatter, right. Am I thinking am I thinking I've got to stop thinking I can't stop thinking, no, just let the thoughts come just watch them I will probably do a whole program on Meditation at some point. I have, I've taught a lot of meditation in my days, I have a lot of a lot of opinions about it. But you know, you don't need a specific method, there's no method of meditation that's better. You know, that is globally better. You know, there there are some that work better for some people and some that work better for others. And you know, some meditation is religious meaning you know, you would have to be of a specific faith to get the most benefit out of it and that might not be appropriate for you or you might want to meditate as a you know, as part of your faith and so you would look to your faith tradition for that. So anyway, I am going to wrap this up. I hope you are having a fantastic new year and I hope you're stay happy and healthy and look forward to what 2022 has to bring. There will be there are changes coming changes, changes for the good for everyone. And let's bring more love and light into the world this year. Hope this has been helpful and I will talk to you very very soon.

Announcer 51:59

You have been listening to speaking spirit with your host, John more. For more info or to contact John go to maineshaman.com That's maineshman.com